| Bible Study | |
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Koyi Donita - Student  |
Yep. Here it is. My first offical Forum and of course it's about my favorite topic, The Bible. Basically, I would like this to be an open forum based on the Bible and the truths held with in. If anyone has any Biblical truths that they would like to share with everyone, I ask for you to please put it up on the table as we will all search for truth in God's Word. If anyone has any questions, maybe collectively we may be able to help them through the Bible God willing. I only ask that if you have no faith or have nothing constructive to post, please respect my wishes and just ignore this forum. All questions from non-believers are welcome as long as you seriously seek God's truth. May God bless us all through his wonderful Word. Quote: For those of you who like, this site has every translation. Plus search, studies, GREAT RESOURCE The Bible Gateway -DM- Thank you Darth Mobility.  _______________ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Rom. 1:16 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Rom. 10:17 I love my babyface. Smilykrazy is my baby and I love her. ...Swimming through the void we hear the Word, we lose ourselves but we find it all... System Of A Down.  This post was edited by Koyi Donita on Apr 30 2005 05:38pm. |
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JamesF1 - Student 
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Quote: If you are to study the Word of God, it would be a sin not to study it in its entirity. Oh YES! You've come up on the part that *annoys* me the most about threads like this. People take things out of CONTEXT. We must make sure we read EVERYTHING from the Bible in context, otherwise it can be 'made' to support anyone's views. _______________ Website |
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JamesF1 - Student 
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I am just watching with my jaw on the desk. Want my thoughts? Read Mobys... _______________ Website |
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SaberWeildinKow - Student 
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Here is what you said: Quote: Anyway, why would I want to serve a God that Has set up a salvation plan that we have no control over? Why would I want to serve a God that has either preordained me unto death or everlasting life? Simple. Because He is God and I believe that in my own sin cursed body, I can't even please God with anything I do or say. Sure, the scriptures you posted would be so wonderful if that was all that was written in the Bible, but they aren't. I would love to reach out to God and pray for forgiveness, and be baptized and saved by Him, and chose to live a life trying to follow His commandments. Doesn't sound that hard at all. My sins aren't so bad that I can't turn from them as you stated earlier, it's just that I don't want to fool myself through my own works that somehow Christ has entered into my life and saved me when it was all by my will. Emphasis added, but the intention is well preserved. This comment was edited by SaberWeildinKow on Jul 18 2004 08:36am. |
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Koyi Donita - Student 
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Quote: Koyi, you said something about fooling yourself into believing that you have received help from Christ in attaining what you believe, but in actuality you've done it all on your very own. What? This is what I said. Quote: My sins aren't so bad that I can't turn from them as you stated earlier, it's just that I don't want to fool myself through my own works that somehow Christ has entered into my life and saved me when it was all by my will. I said nothing about what I believe. Please take the time to read more carefully what I post. God can command a man to do jumping jacks and that man can do jumping jacks, but He also warns us. Again in Matthew 7:21-23 we read: 21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Here Jesus clearly claims that people will call on Him, "Believe" in Him, they will do great works in "His" name and He will cast them away saying that He never knew them. How is this so? Does not the scriptures say that if we call on His name or believe on Him we will be saved? It's because our faith and our works are all considered work. In no way, shape, or form will one be saved by anything they do. I will save us all from reading Romans 3:9-20 yet again which clearly states that no man will come to God or seek after His knowledge or follow His commandments. Let's read on just a little further though. In Romans 3:22-27 we read: 22) Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference. 23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24) Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26) To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27) Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. In verse 22, Even the [bold]rightesousness of God[/bold] which is by [bold]faith of Jesus Christ.[/bold] In verse 24, Being justified freely by [bold]his grace.[/bold] In verse 25, to declare [bold]his righteousness[/bold] for the remission of sins {and} through the [bold]forbearance of God.[/bold] In verse 26, [bold]his righteousness:[/bold] that [bold]he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.[/bold] In Ephesians 2:8-10 we read: 8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9) Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. In verse 8, are ye saved through faith; [bold]and that not of yourselves.[/bold] In verse 9, [bold]Not of works[/bold] And verse 10 says it all. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. This is what I am saying. I will not walk by God's commandments not because I am proud, but because God would have before ordained me to walk in them through Christ. Maybe at some point in my life He will Bless me with His Holy Spirit and I will begin to walk in His commandments, but not by my works. As far as your two sticks theory is concerned and the Book of Mormon being the other half of the Bible, I don't agree with that. Let us look at Ezekiel. After the two sticks scriptures which have already been posted, we read in Ezekiel 37:20-22: 20) And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes. 21) And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: 22) And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all: In Ezekiel 37:16 we read: 16) Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions: These are the two sticks which you believe to be the Bible and the Book of Mormon. But let us look closer at the language. The first stick, for Judah, and the children of Israel his companions. The Jews, God's chosen people of the old testament. The second stick, for Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions. The house of Israel? The children and the house. What does God have to say about Israel? In Romans 9:4-8 we read: 4) Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 5) Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. 6) Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7) Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, IN ISAAC SHALL THY SEED BE CALLED. 8) That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. God here is speaking of others who are considered Israel that aren't of Israel. Further study in the Bible will show that the promises of the old testament wasn't to the blood of the Jews, but to the Jews which were one inwardly. In Romans 2:28 & 29 we read: 28) For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29) But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose prise is not of men, but of God. So in the two sticks we have the children of Israel and the whole house of Israel. The first the believers out of the blood descendants of Abraham, God's first chosen people (which were a picture of all who would come to believe in Him) the Jews. The second, the Israel that are all not Israel, the believers of the whole world, the gentiles. The old testament written by Moses and the prophets for the Jews of blood, and the new testament written for the whole house, the entire world full of true believers not of the Jews but of the Gentiles too. These two books were sealed in Revelations which I quoted and you requoted for nothing should be taken away or added to these two books in one book. The so called prophet later to come with his visions or dreams or whatever claiming to have additional revelations from God is in direct violation to what is recorded in the Book of Revelations. He added unto the prophecy of the Bible after it was already completed and sealed. This is what the scriptures tell me. I'll be glad to admit that I'm not saved and would never want to believe that I hold the total truth or that I did an extensive study on these scriptures. I could very well be wrong, but how can you openly call God a liar when He in His own power sealed His Word in Revelation? 18) For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: It's pretty clear to me. Please open another thread to discuss this issue further if you want to. I would love to see the scriptures of both books, both the Bible and the Book of Mormon, that validate the Book of Mormon being additional revelation sanctioned by God for further reproof, correction, etc. It's not something that needs to be discussed on this thread. I remember a scripture that I am far to tired to look up where it states if the gospel isn't received of the people to shake the dust of your sandels and leave. And another about not casting priceless pearls into the swine to trample them. I have asked kindly before and will do so again, Please leave the LDS addition out of this discussion. It isn't welcome here because this thread wasn't started with the purpose of searching it out. With that, follow the scriptures I just made referance too and take your gospel to others who will listen please. I might even be apart of that discussion which may be profittable if sound and you will have another brother in me. _______________ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Rom. 1:16 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Rom. 10:17 I love my babyface. Smilykrazy is my baby and I love her. ...Swimming through the void we hear the Word, we lose ourselves but we find it all... System Of A Down.
This comment was edited by Koyi Donita on Jul 18 2004 09:45am. |
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SaberWeildinKow - Student
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Koyi, you said something about fooling yourself into believing that you have received help from Christ in attaining what you believe, but in actuality you've done it all on your very own. Proverbs 3:5-7 5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. 6. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. 7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the Lord, and depart from evil. Does this not state that we must do exactly as you have set out not to? Does this not also lead us to follow the counsel found in James 1:5? 5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. And emphasis on the next verse: 6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. And now I must ask why mention or use of The Book of Mormon is so forbidden here. Yes this is 'Bible Study', but if a parallel may be drawn, where is the wrong? For instance, Matthew 5:7 7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 3 Nephi 13:7 7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen, for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. or Matthew 7 24-25 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. 3 Nephi 14:24-27 24 Therefore, whoso heareth these sayings of mine and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, who built his house upon a rock-- 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not, for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine and doeth them not shall be likened unto a foolish man, who built his house upon the sand-- 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell, and great was the fall of it. Sure sounds like the same doctrine to me! What do you think Koyi? Moby? Without hostility I ask, I expect that as men you will reply the same. It sure seems to satisfy Revelations 22:18-19 as you mentioned it Koyi: 18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. And as Faded earlier put it (Ezekiel 37:15-20) the two testaments, the Bible and the Book of Mormon are to be joined as one! The scripture which you put forth Koyi, Revelations 22:18-19 states that none must be added to the Word nor can any be taken away. Well if the Bible and the Book of Mormon are preaching the same Gospel then they are the two sticks which the LORD said must become as one, which they have. And to separate them, to separate the Two books which are One word would be to completely violate the commandment in Revelations 22:19, that no "man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy." Both the Bible and the Book of Mormon prophecy of Christ, the coming and workings of Christ. That is the message of both books, but since they are one, to separate would be to "take away from the words of the book". This is the commandment Koyi, this is the Way of The LORD. Two witnesses to everything. These are the Two witnesses brought to Two peoples brought together under One, the Same Word. And Matthew 7:28-29 28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine: 29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes. People say the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is too bold. Well just as Jesus Christ, whom we name ourselves of and look to for direction, we are not afraid to speak the Word of God as Truth. And you are one too! You are a follower of Christ insomuch as you know, are you not? If you are to study the Word of God, it would be a sin not to study it in its entirity. In the name of Jesus The Christ and Savior. Amen. This comment was edited by SaberWeildinKow on Jul 18 2004 08:04am. |
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Koyi Donita - Student
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Quote: I am not going to say that your bending scripture to suit your theory on salvation, but to me, you have made up your mind and that is that. There are far more scriptures about God's grace and love that you fail to post. Your only studying, (or posting), scriptures that vaugly back up what your saying. -DM- DM. The whole point of this thread is to study the Bible in it's entirety. The scriptures I am posting and there are much more to come if you would be patient with me will clarify what I am stating. These scriptures can not just simply be ignored and swept under the rug. I totally agree with the scriptures you posted, however, we need to see the full spectrum of the scriptures to see the true message of salvation. Again, I don't believe I am saved nor do I believe that I have all the answers. God tells us that he resists the proud and lifts up the humble. Ever stop and think about what that really means? To truely humble oneself to another? I can't even truely capture the pure thought in my head. Just a glancing thought. Anyway, why would I want to serve a God that Has set up a salvation plan that we have no control over? Why would I want to serve a God that has either preordained me unto death or everlasting life? Simple. Because He is God and I believe that in my own sin cursed body, I can't even please God with anything I do or say. Sure, the scriptures you posted would be so wonderful if that was all that was written in the Bible, but they aren't. I would love to reach out to God and pray for forgiveness, and be baptized and saved by Him, and chose to live a life trying to follow His commandments. Doesn't sound that hard at all. My sins aren't so bad that I can't turn from them as you stated earlier, it's just that I don't want to fool myself through my own works that somehow Christ has entered into my life and saved me when it was all by my will. [Please everyone. EVERYONE! Do not take this for truth. I am a sin fill man using my own thoughts on this one post and it isn't profittable at all!!!] More scripture is to come and I would like it very much if we all can discuss it in a calm fashion. I have no preconceived picture of God and His Awesomeness in my head. I'm just trying very slowly and very patiently to hear what He has to say. So many in the past drew their conclusions after reading what they wanted to hear and God will illustrate this in His Word. We all have to be exceedingly careful when it comes to His Word. We are not in any way, shape, or form better or smarter then God and when He talks no matter how ugly the language, we need to listen and tremble. This is The Word of God we are studying and this is Almighty God we are searching! _______________ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Rom. 1:16 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Rom. 10:17 I love my babyface. Smilykrazy is my baby and I love her. ...Swimming through the void we hear the Word, we lose ourselves but we find it all... System Of A Down.
This comment was edited by Koyi Donita on Jul 18 2004 06:51am. |
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SaberWeildinKow - Student
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It's all good, I'll check back Monday. |
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Smilykrazy - Retired 
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Well said DM!! Yeah its cool you want to be involved in koyis thread cow. We welcome ya!! But the name of this thread is the bible study thread. If you want to talk about the mormon religion, etc you are more then welcome to open a thread about it. I am sure there are alot of people who would like to know more about your religion/church, etc. But again, just please discuss the bible here. TY!! _______________ RIP MOM 06/29/58-07/31/08 Married to Koyi Donita 4/30/11 |
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SaberWeildinKow - Student
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DM, how do you interpret Matthew 16:18? 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it [emphasis added]. Just curious This comment was edited by SaberWeildinKow on Jul 18 2004 06:04am. |
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SaberWeildinKow - Student 
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Well first of all I didn't say Joseph Smith was the 'one true prophet' but ok, I figured Bible Study = Christian Religious Text. Guess not. This comment was edited by SaberWeildinKow on Jul 18 2004 06:11am. |
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DaRtH-MoBiLiTy - Student 
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Kow, 99% of what you just said comes straight from the book of mormon. This thread is to study the Bible. For you to say that the one true church is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints, is YOUR opinion. Just because you think that does not make my church (Assemblies of God) any less important or take from the fact that Jesus never set up, "Church". Church is simple as this: "Where two or more are gathered together and pray in My name and agree on any one thing...It Shall Be Done!. For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I, in the midst of them. " Matthew 18: 19, 20 I can sit and fellowship with my Christian Friend and that could be church. Now I choose to go to a non denominational church, because I feel Religion has no place around Jesus. It is fine that you, "Know" in your heart what you believe to be true, but don't come in here and state it as fact. Furthermore, if you would like to like to say the ONE true prophet was Joseph Smith, and the One True Religion is Mormonism, and the One True Church is the Morman Church, than I suggest you start your own thread, this thread is a Bible Study. If you would like to read and study the Bible with us, then your more than welcome. -DM- _______________ One Day, it will all end. |
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SaberWeildinKow - Student
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Eh, I just saw DM's post and without reading the rest of this all I'm going to respond, so forgive me for any fudge ups. The Lord wishes to have us All return. He loves us all. I speak of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ at the same time, but I know that they are separate beings. We return to God through the atonement of Jesus Christ And through our actions As Well As the intentions of our Hearts. We cannot be sinless in this lifetime, it is not possible, However, we Can be in a sense, perfect. We can strive with all of our hearts to do that which is right, and to Be that which is desirable to our Father in Heaven. What does he wish us to be? Individually, our Earthly Missions may differ, but collectively, he merely wants us to love him. Our love drives us to truly strive to Be his servant, not just Do what is right. If I am to continue I must explain that there is Only One Church of God on the Earth. This actually might be a logical knowledge. Christ came on the Earth and established One Church. He established a Church with a certain organization, 12 apostles, priests/watchers over the people, ect. He instituted the sacrament, preached the importance of baptism into The Church, and completed his Earthly Mission (among many many other things). We see that there is only One Church of Jesus Christ. I know that after His Church was lost on the Earth that it has been restored today on this Earth. I know that it is The Church Of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I know that it was restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith. I know that The Power of God, the Priesthood, was restored to the Earth first by John The Baptist who brought the Aaronic (or lesser) Priesthood, then by Peter, James and John, who restored the Melchezidek (or greater) Priesthood to the Earth. The authority to baptize, to seal marriages (not just for time, but all time And Eternity!), to ordain others to the offices of the Priesthood, and to administor unto, or for, the dead. With this knowledge, I might explain how I Know The Father loves us all equally: Not all have known the Gospel, it has not been brought to every ear and heart that has walked the Earth, how then can we Know that those who have not heard are to be judged fairly? After mortal death there is a place prepared for before the Judgement Day. This is not a purgatory, there is no such thing as "working your way into heaven." What lies between are the "Spirit Paradise" and "Spirit 'Prison'." Those in Paradise (as it were) are those who have known the truthfulness of The Gospel, while those in it's counterpart are those who have not as well as those who have fallen away or led wicked lives. Those in the Spirit Paradise visit their brethren in Prison, and teach them of the Gospel. Whether they accept the Gospel or not is their own personal decision, but as Christ showed us by example, we must all be baptized in His name. Well since those in the Spirit World have not yet reunited with their bodies (resurrection) a proxy body must be used. This is us here on Earth, in the Temples of The Lord. We take on the name of the deceased, and our bodies serve as the proxies. This baptism for the dead (and soon after, confirmation of membership and the receiving of the Holy Ghost as a constant companion) allows the dead person to choose whether to accept The Gospel or not. By this, we are All given the chance to return. By this, we see Heavenly Father's love for us all. |
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SaberWeildinKow - Student
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There are a lot of things I could use to base my knowledge on the opportunity for my Salvation (The things whispered to my heart by the Holy Ghost are amazing..but that can't really be explained now can it?) but if I could cheat(?) and use the Book of Mormon instead of the Bible, Moses 1:39 39 For behold, this is my work and my glory--to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. None of it really lies in the brain so I'll let that suffice. Anyway, I haven't really ever kept up with this board, but what do you all think of the purpose of prayer? I mean, if Heavenly Father knows the desires of our hearts, why must we pray? How must we pray? Just a thought. |
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DaRtH-MoBiLiTy - Student 
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I feel as though my input in this subject has come to an end. Bottom line, your gonna believe what you want to believe. If you think that God plays favorites and does not love and want to save each one of us equally than that is your right. Why you would want to serve a God like that is beyond me. I am not going to say that your bending scripture to suit your theory on salvation, but to me, you have made up your mind and that is that. There are far more scriptures about God's grace and love that you fail to post. Your only studying, (or posting), scriptures that vaugly back up what your saying. I do agree he wants us to live right. I do agree that we can not have lifestyles of sin. I do not agree that God plays favorites and created people soley for the reason of sending them to hell. If you want to post more scriptures and thoughts about why we are all damned, then fine. But I have reaffirmed why I believe what I believe in this study and it has been great for me. I am ready to move on and study another aspect of the Word. -DM- _______________ One Day, it will all end. This comment was edited by DaRtH-MoBiLiTy on Jul 18 2004 02:14am. |
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Koyi Donita - Student 
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Okay, not alot of time here but I will start with some of the scriptures that I base my beliefs of salvation on. Now we all probably have heard John 3:16 a million times now. I know that I have and I have only been studying the Bible for a few short years now. In John 3:16-21 we read: 16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19) And this is the the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20) For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21) But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. Back to John 3:16 though. Alot of people see the first part, "For God so loved the world", and think that it says, "For God very much loved the world". This I don't believe is so. See the word [bold]SO[/bold] could have a different meaning or definition. In the Webster's New World Dictionary the definition for so is: So - as shown or described / hold the bat just so. If we read this again with that definition we get, "For God [as shown] or [in this manner] loved the world". I go with this definition more myself because God has wiped out all of the life on this planet in the past and will return again to do it again saving only those that He predestinated to Himself. In John 13:1 we read: 1) NOW before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end. In John 15:18-22 we read: 18) If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. 19) If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. 20) Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also. 21) But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me. 22) If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloak for their sin. Okay. Now in verse 19 we see, "but I have chosen you out of the world". He didn't say I have chosen the whole world and you came unto me. He states very clear that He chose them out of the world and that the world would hate them because they were no longer of the world. This completely agree's with what I posted earlier in Romans which I will post later so we can take another look at those verses again. But lets continue. In John 17:1-3, 6, 9 & 10 we read: 1) THESE words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2) As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3) And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. ...you can read the whole thing if you like ...6) I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. ... 9) I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. 10) And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. Here in verse 9 He prays for His own and not for the world, but for those whom God gave to Him. The whole world was not in view in John 3:16. To better understand that verse, we have to see what Jesus commands His own to do. In Mark 16:15 we read: 15) And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. In Romans 10:14-17 we read: 14) How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15) And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THEM THAT PREACH THE GOSPEL OF PEACE, AND BRING GLAD TIDINGS OF GOOD THINGS! 16) But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah saith, LORD, WHO HATH BELIEVED OUR REPORT? 17) So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. This is God's salvation plan in action. He sends His Word into the World, people hear it and those of which He had chosen from before the foundation of the world He gives them the gift of the Holy Spirit and saves them. Thus, the world in John 3:16 now makes sense. He didn't save the world or pay for the worlds sins, but Jesus suffered His death to pay for the sins of those in the world that the gospel could be completed and sent into the whole world. I will post more scripture later. I don't want for this post to be super long to where no one will want to read the whole thing. In pieces it might be better. Thank you all for listening. May God Bless the reading of His Word. Amen. _______________ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Rom. 1:16 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Rom. 10:17 I love my babyface. Smilykrazy is my baby and I love her. ...Swimming through the void we hear the Word, we lose ourselves but we find it all... System Of A Down.
This comment was edited by Koyi Donita on Jul 19 2004 05:53am. |
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Koyi Donita - Student
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Okay, I think where alot of issues came up from is where I stated my beliefs and not the scriptures. I've been studying on this in whatever time I had so now I can post them. I don't have much time, so I'll post what I can and get back to it later. I just want to comment on a few earlier posts. Quote: God does not expect us to be perfect. He does not expect us to be sinless or blameless. I disagree with this. The whole law is there to show us that if we did live sinless or perfect/blameless lives, we wouldn't need a savior. God commands us to keep these laws and that is something I feel shouldn't be taken lightly. But enough of my babble, lets look into His Word for the answers. In Gen.6:9 we read: 9) These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God. Now we can easily get confused because God tells us in other scriptures such as the Psalms or the ones in Romans that we've posted over and over again that no man is righteous or seeks after God. This raises the question, how can we be perfect or what is perfection in the eyes of God? Just want to touch on a few other scriptures where God commands perfection. In Gen.17:1 we read: AND when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. In Deut.18:13 we read: 13) Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God. In Psalm 19:7 we read: 7) The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. In Psalm 37:37&38 we read: 37) Mark the perfect man, and behold the upright: for the end of that man is peace. 38) But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off. In Matt.5:48 we read: 48) Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. In John 17:17-23 we read: 17) Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 18) As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. 19) And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. 20) Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21) That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22) And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one. 23) I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. These verses in John 17 are almost the key to understanding what Jesus or God is commanding us in perfection. In verse 23 He says, "I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one;". Jesus in making a direct statement claiming that once he enters into those that are to be saved, then they are made perfect. In Col.3:14 we read: 14) And above all these things put on charity[love], which is the bond of perfectness. In 2 Tim.3: 16 & 17 we read: 16) All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17) That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. In Heb. 6:1 we read: 1) THEREFORE leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God. Quote: First and formost, this is impossible. This is true and part of why I believe what I believe about salvation. But lets look together at what God has to say about the impossible. In Matt. 19:23-26 we read: 23) Then said Jesus unto him disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. 24) And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through th eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. 25) When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? 26) But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible. In verse 25, it is interesting how they were exceedingly amazed by that saying. Probably because they felt that they could work toward or have some kinda control over their salvation as most do. Then they ask the question, "Who then can be saved"? Not how can rich men be saved. Who then can be saved with exceedingly amazed expressions. The same story can be found in Mark 10:23-27 and Luke 18:24-27. I just wanted to comment on those ealier posts. They kinda connect into the other scriptures I have studied. I will return later to post them. Have a good day everybody and may God and His Blessing to the reading of His Word. Amen. _______________ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Rom. 1:16 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Rom. 10:17 I love my babyface. Smilykrazy is my baby and I love her. ...Swimming through the void we hear the Word, we lose ourselves but we find it all... System Of A Down.
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DaRtH-MoBiLiTy - Student
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Koyi, Of course your welcome. You started this thread. Like I said before, FaDed knows this is Bible Study. Lets just let him study with us and I am sure he will watch his words as not to confuse the topic. He is great to study with, just look at the conversation we had tonight! It was awesome and I think you would really appreciate it. -DM- _______________ One Day, it will all end. |
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Koyi Donita - Student
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Quote: Gonna have to agree with the others here Koyi. When you do share common aspects of scripture with another religious group even if they have a little more or a little less of it, they can always add something from what we all share. I'm sorry Buzz, but I would have to disagree with you. The Bible as we know it consist of the old and new testaments. At the end of the old testament is the book of Malachi. In Malachi 4:4-6 we read: 4)Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments. 5) Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: 6) And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse. Okay, now here we don't witness any sign of an end. Infact, we get the exact opposite with a promise of the sending of the prophet Elijah. In Matthew 11:9-15 we read: 9) But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more then a prophet. 10) For this is he, of whom it is written, BEHOLD, I SEND MY MESSENGER BEFORE THY FACE, WHICH SHALL PREPARE THY WAY BEFORE THEE. 11) Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12) And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. 13) For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. 14) And if ye will receive it, this is Elijah, which was for to come. 15) He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. Now we can see perfectly that this was a prophesy of more to come. Problem is now when you get to the end of the new testament in Revelations and it ends with a different message. In Revelation 22:18&19 we read: 18) For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19) And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. God pretty much seals this book off, the old and new testaments together, as one cohesive book where nothing should be added or taken away from. This is what we should be discussing here for this is the very topic in which this thread was started with. Everyone here has the power to start other threads in which they can discuss all the scriptures, writing, literatures, etc. they want pertaining to Jesus Christ, Jehova, Yaweh, God, or whatever other religion/spellings they want. I don't see how I'm in the wrong for trying to filter this thread out so it doesn't get off the topic at hand. If you guys want for me to back out of this thread, just say the word because I'm not feeling very welcome to it anymore and I wouldn't want to be anyone's target when all I'm trying to do is search for truth.  _______________ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Rom. 1:16 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Rom. 10:17 I love my babyface. Smilykrazy is my baby and I love her. ...Swimming through the void we hear the Word, we lose ourselves but we find it all... System Of A Down.
This comment was edited by Koyi Donita on Jul 17 2004 06:14am. |
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Koyi Donita - Student
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Quote: Koyi, this is exactly why some people have a major problem with religion and its followers. Faded, in good faith, comes in and tries to add something useful and meaningful in response to Odan's comments and then you come at Faded to reject his beliefs. implying that what he believes in is inferior and inappropriate. i don't consider myself a christian, so how am i to truely know, but i don't find your actions very christian like. taking issue with what "flavor" of christianity someone is seems to be counterproductive to Jesus' intentions IMHO. 3th. I totally understand what you are saying here. I too do not view myself as a christian which I will post the scriptures why very shortly. I'm not putting down his faith or his beliefs, but I did call for a Bible study. When I see: Quote: Article of Faith No. 8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God. I have to raise an eyebrow to this because I am not familar with it and I don't believe that it is Bible based. I have very good reasons for believing that the Bible (both the old and new testaments alone and in there entirety) is the Word of God with no other books, visions, dreams, miracles, etc. adding to them. I totally welcome Faded and his vast knowledge of the Bible for it can be very productive to this thread. However, as soon as outside material is introduced it no longer becomes a study strictly of the Bible and I feel we are getting off the topic at hand. It is completely fine and in Faded's power to start a thread studying the Bible and the Book of Mormon together to search out there truths without changing or harming the subject/discussion of this thread. I stated that it wasn't out of disrespect or anything like that. Guess I'm not to good with words. Sorry if I offended anybody. _______________ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Rom. 1:16 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Rom. 10:17 I love my babyface. Smilykrazy is my baby and I love her. ...Swimming through the void we hear the Word, we lose ourselves but we find it all... System Of A Down.
This comment was edited by Koyi Donita on Jul 17 2004 05:35am. |
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Buzz - Student 
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Gonna have to agree with the others here Koyi. Since Faded isn't posting anything out of the Book of Mormon there's nothing wrong with what he has to say. It would be similar to one of the jewish members here at the academy adding to the discussion by bringing up things in what we call the old testament. When you do share common aspects of scripture with another religious group even if they have a little more or a little less of it, they can always add something from what we all share. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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DaRtH-MoBiLiTy - Student
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Boy, okay here it goes..../me cringes.... Koyi, I agree with alot of what you said regarding the book of mormon. However, the mormons do believe in the Bible and the fundamentals of Jesus Christ. FaDed and I have been bouncing stuff back and forth for over a year now without ever telling each other the other one was wrong. FaDed is very well versed in the Word and I accept his input. He has not posted any text from the Book of Mormon out of respect. I think we should respect his views and definitely welcome his input. Sorry man, but I can't get your back completly on this one. -DM- _______________ One Day, it will all end. |
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3th - Retired 
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Koyi, this is exactly why some people have a major problem with religion and its followers. Faded, in good faith, comes in and tries to add something useful and meaningful in response to Odan's comments and then you come at Faded to reject his beliefs. implying that what he believes in is inferior and inappropriate. i don't consider myself a christian, so how am i to truely know, but i don't find your actions very christian like. taking issue with what "flavor" of christianity someone is seems to be counterproductive to Jesus' intentions IMHO. _______________ this is the internet, be serious damn it! |
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FaDed - Student 
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as far as i'm concerned, i didn't do anything that was contrary to what this thread is for. i proposed a statement that says the Bible is the word of God. the statement is not against the Bible in any way, shape or form. and it doesn't come from the Book of Mormon. i have not posted anything yet that has come from the Book of Mormon. now, you say let's study the Bible in its entirety. good, i love the idea. but for me, you can't study the Bible in its entirety without the Book of Mormon for the Bible makes many mentions of it. Ezekiel 37:15-20 KJV 15 The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying, 16 Moverover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Isreal his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Isreal his companions: 17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become on in thine hand. 18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thought meanest by these? 19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Isreal his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand. 20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes. at the time of Ezekiel, wooden tablets, or sticks, were commonly used to write on. if you would like read more into that, click here. one stick is to be written for the people of Judah, namely the Jews, who are all descendents of the tribe of Judah. this stick has become known as the Holy Bible, written by the Jews for the children of Isreal. the other stick was written for the tribe of Joseph, specifically his son Ephraim, who was given the birthright. it was also written for the house of Isreal, meaning all the world. for when we become disciples of Christ we are adopted into the House of Isreal and become chosen sons and daughters of God. the people who's record is contained in the Book of Mormon are known as Nephites and Lamanites, after the men Nephi and Laman. these two men were sons of the prophet Lehi who was a contemporary of the prophet Jeremiah and lived in Jerusalem around 600 BC. Lehi was a descendent of Joseph through the line of Ephraim. the Book of Mormon is a record written by descendents of Lehi and therefore of Joseph. now it can be seen what is meant by the stick of Joseph. in verse 18, it is asked, what is meant by these two sticks? these two books together become one in the hand of the Lord for they are both books of scripture, contain the word of God, and testify of the divinity and mission of the Savior, Jesus Christ. the Bible not only makes mention of the Book of Mormon, but Christ himself is recorded speaking about the people of the Book of Mormon. John 10:14-16 KJV 14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. 15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. in this passage Christ relates himself as being the shepherd to all of God's children. he speaks of another fold that he must visit and gather together just as he has done with the Jews. a record of that visit is contained within the Book of Mormon. now, i'm not going to post anything actually from the Book of Mormon. i will respect your wishes, koyi. but to study the Bible in its entirety, a study of the Book of Mormon is necessary, for they are one in the hand of the Lord. |
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Koyi Donita - Student
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I really don't want to be rude or anything to that mindset Faded. I welcome you to our Bible discussion with open arms. It is really cool that you have taken an interest in this thread. Only problem that I have is that this thread was set up with the sole purpose of studing the Bible alone and in it's entirety. As far as witnesses go, let us look into that. In Isaiah 55:1-4 we read: 1)HO, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price. 2) Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labor for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness. 3) Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David. 4) Behold, I have given him for a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the people. It should be well known that David was one of the writers of the Bible. The Bible or the Word of God relates to God in the 1st chapter of John. In John 8:16-18 we read: 16) And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me. 17) It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. 18) I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me. In Heb. 10:26-28 we read: 26) For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27) But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28) He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Many prophets came forth from God to present God through His Word to us. God and His Word are our witnesses according to His Word the Bible. In Revelation 23:18 & 19 we read: 18) For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19) And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. That tells me that the Bible alone and in it's entirety is the Word of God. God gave His final Revelation in the Bible and warned that nothing would or should be added to or taken away from it. I'm not trying to sway you from your faith and I respect it my friend. If you even started a simular thread, I would be interested to see some of the conversation that is LDS. Please don't post any more writtings from that book. Thank you. _______________ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Rom. 1:16 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Rom. 10:17 I love my babyface. Smilykrazy is my baby and I love her. ...Swimming through the void we hear the Word, we lose ourselves but we find it all... System Of A Down.
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FaDed - Student
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Article of Faith No. 8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God. this statement comes from a list of 13 that state the basic beliefs of the LDS church known as the Articles of Faith. from this statement, it is plain to see that we believe in the Bible and we believe it holds light and truth that is beneficial for all men. the catch is in its translation. as has already been pointed out, men over the centuries have changed and tailored the Bible to fit their own set of beliefs. it wasn't always done with a malicious attitude, but nonetheless, many plain and precious parts have been lost. it is because of this that we need a second witness of Christ. the Bible says "that in the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established." (Mat. 18:16) the LDS church claims to have that second witness, the Book of Mormon: Another Witness of Jesus Christ. we believe that the Book of Mormon supports and elevates the Bible and in no way is a replacement for it. they are to be used together to establish the word. now, many have said, "i have not found a religion that fits my views." now let me ask this question, do your views fit God's views? mine don't. i don't even pretend to know everything that God knows. but i do know that he has laid out a specific plan for his children and wants us to follow his Only Begotten's example that me may return to him. i believe it is correct to say that a religion needs to fit you. but rather, i believe you need to fit yourself to a religion because that is how God intended it. |
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