| Exploits (no flaming :D) | |
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Jake Kainite - Student  |
First off, as I said no flaming please, or the thread will just be closed down. This is just for your personal opinions of 'exploits' and I really just want a clarification of the rules. My opinion: Basically if you can do it, I don't consider it wrong. This includes scripting (yes I know its against JA rules, doesn't make it wrong though  )What is the JA's standing on exploits? I read in a the intagib thread about strafe jumping being an exploit, which I spose technically is very true. However what about things such as throw pulling, swaying (or whatever it was). _______________ Apprenctice of Jedi Master Ascari (deceased) Descended from a line of great Jedi Will argue any point of view from any side |
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Permanent:
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Aron - Retired 
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Thread bans: None yet. Let's keep it that way! |
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NotSoLittleCaesar - Student 
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after this uh..'squable' with ppl in this thread il state my full opinion: As master said about the history of tehe poke. all started in esl ect, Its another style. people who use it have often said 'i play for fun, relax its a game' and 'poking takes skill' nad yes. i full agree. Poking takes skill to master, like it or not its true. as has been mentioned u must learn how to impact a poke well. but the crap pokers simply wave there mouse round (like pokin) I have poked in the past, Badly and yes it was fun. and yes it took skill for me to master (well...to use effectivly) a person who randomly starts oking has no idea where the hell they are, thats why u must also know when to pace them so when u do them, u dont get fwaped in the face after when u have no idea where u are. The art of poking will be outdated IMo, as many have also said. people will find new tricks to counter poking aswell as they did for staffs. people are WAYYYY to tight up, people are finding new ways to do damage all the time. and i have heard even on the JA that these things are exploiting (this is also what master jisted at) they aint, they are new styles developing and tbh, u guys are slightly digging ur own grave, while u whine about poking and exploiting some of you are also digging ur grave abotu stopping people from finding new ways to play the game. people will make new styles and u people will complain, IMO if i dont see it as exploiting, its MY STYLE if you dont like it its your opinions which people have rights to explain. Certain exploits are worse than others. the other thing i hear is that 'light swaying' is like a uber h4x or 'sploiting, tbh i find it rediculous. u only hear this in the JA mega swaying, ye is bad, they insta, but the swaying i see in the ja (barely none or controlled) is doing a extra couple of damage like i said, i only hear complaining of this in the jA. Spining. now, this is a very wide subject. spinning 260, yes is bad, but is also passable (although yes.bad) two full rotations is v bad. ups damage up to insats (if i remember rightly) -tal-  _______________ Quote: I mostly agree oh Lord of the squeezy mop
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Jake Kainite - Student 
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After giving poking a try today (after the considerate instruction of Master Kain ) I have mixed feelings. Alot of the exploits which people take advantage of, normally do so because they are quite fun as it makes you feel superior to everyone else Throw pulling for example is fantastic, it takes the skill the time and land the hits and is really satisfying when you see people trying to stop it with absorb and whatnot.'Poking' however is confusing....I tried it on a wall, and you can clearly see the difference in the amount of marks it makes on the wall, creating 6 score marks as opposed to the one score mark when doing a normal swing. When swivelling the mouse against an opponent however, I found it really difficult to figure out where I was and what the hell was going on! Coupled with that the fact that a succesful poke hit happens rarely (but when it does happen its like a 1 hit kill)I wouldn't reccomend this to anyone. HOWEVER, I can imagine that once you've mastered this it could prove to be highly effective if you managed to improve the consistantsy of the hits. _______________ Apprenctice of Jedi Master Ascari (deceased) Descended from a line of great Jedi Will argue any point of view from any side
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Rosie - Student 
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Quote: Yeah, that's true. If I duelled a mirror me, and he poked, spun and all the nice stuff everyone loves, he would own me into the ground. Here's why: In a duel, you win by punishing your opponents mistakes. Now, when my mirror version makes a mistake, i'm going to land a hit for say 30-40 damage since I whore red/strong stance, where as when he punishes mine, he's going to hit me for about 80+, or if he's a 1337 poker, kill me. Yeah, he hasn't just got the edge, he's stolen my lightsaber, and given me a cardboard tube. Woo. My opinion on this? I dislike it. It would ruin duels for me, but that's just how it is. Not only does his swings punish me a lot harder, but his poke's will act like a shield making it harder for me to punish him, where he would normally be punishable (the open area of swings). Yarrr. Edit: Damage used in my examples is based on average of my hits, sometimes I'll get lucky, or use an overhead. TY!! that's exactly what I wanted to say but didn't know how  |
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ozzcoz - Cosplay Nerd 
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I would appreciate it if Wolfwood would explain his push and pull technique a little in this thread. I don't think that it is necessarily exploiting, but it is interesting. I don't want to try to explain it myself, because quite frankly I don't understand it that well. So yes, please share Master Wolfwood. _______________ A wizard did it. |
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Kainz00r - Jedi Knight 
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Yeah, that's true. If I duelled a mirror me, and he poked, spun and all the nice stuff everyone loves, he would own me into the ground. Here's why: In a duel, you win by punishing your opponents mistakes. Now, when my mirror version makes a mistake, i'm going to land a hit for say 30-40 damage since I whore red/strong stance, where as when he punishes mine, he's going to hit me for about 80+, or if he's a 1337 poker, kill me. Yeah, he hasn't just got the edge, he's stolen my lightsaber, and given me a cardboard tube. Woo. My opinion on this? I dislike it. It would ruin duels for me, but that's just how it is. Not only does his swings punish me a lot harder, but his poke's will act like a shield making it harder for me to punish him, where he would normally be punishable (the open area of swings). Yarrr. Edit: Damage used in my examples is based on average of my hits, sometimes I'll get lucky, or use an overhead. _______________ Fervent supporter of duelling - leave a message if you would like to battle! Married to Masta. This comment was edited by Kainz00r on May 25 2005 01:46pm. |
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Jake Kainite - Student
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Firstly, 3th, absorb does not counter throw pulling as absorb doesn't work that way Abosrb will stop the effects of pushing and pulling on you (you won't physically be moved) but your defense is still broken to block the force power. Prett accurate Kainz00r, but with a few omissions and the fact that ff dueling has a changed a little from JKII JA. Firstly, you're absolutely right. In a heads up force battle, be it a duel or not, darksiders have a greater advantage. I've already explained this on many threads in the past that its simple maths. Oh and I always found it easier to beat a lightsider with a low force regen simply beacuse they have longer to wait before they build up enough force to heal meaning you can take your time draining them, and not keep mashing the drain button as fast. What it comes down to is time. For a lightsider to heal it takes HALF of their force pool. Any self respecting darksider with half a brain will not give them the chance to get this much force power, and even if they do run and hide, they've only healed themselves, still caused you no inconnveneicne apart from making the duel take longer. Absorb is pointless in duels. Throw pull them a few times to entice them to put absorb on. If you think they are low on health, carry on throw pulling em and end the duel right there, or (the logical way) just sit there and wait for absorb to run out. They're left with no force to do anything else. Its a shame kick was removed as this was a fantastic feature of the game. Darksiders still have a huge advantage over lightsiders, it just means that duels take longer and contain less variety. So in short, dark pwns light heads up. Light does have its benefits don't get me wrong, but you put an equally skilled darkie against a lightie.....darkie all the way. ----------------------------------------- Back to exploits Alot of the posts in this thread have been along the lines of "if you've got great skills you'll beat an exploiter anyway!" well think about it this way. Alot of players play to win, this means that they are already damn good at what they do, using just the basic techniques. They look to become even better and discover all the ins and outs of the game and they learn exploits, giving them another advantage.So surely just by that rationel, a skilled dueler against an equally skilled dueler who also has working knowledge of exploits will come out on top? That is all (waits for someone to post why lightside is better, or even worse, equal )_______________ Apprenctice of Jedi Master Ascari (deceased) Descended from a line of great Jedi Will argue any point of view from any side
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Kainz00r - Jedi Knight
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Yeah, I think n00b just owned this thread... As for full force duels, i've seen a fair few of them, and these are basically the standards of them: 1- Lightsiders on a high force regen rate server = the loser. You can try and argue against it, but all you can do is a lightsider on high regen is spam your absorb and heal, where as the darksider is constantly on the offensive, and when they're low on health, they wait about 2 seconds for enough force to drain the health they've lost right back. I've seen an experienced this many times. For the following points, we will take the scenario that we are on a server with a high force regen rate, as it the most common you will come accross at the present time on force enabled servers. 2- Force pull + saber throw - This is the equivalent to a red user's 'right' swing in duels, the bread and butter of their combat. The only way to prevent this, is to kill the guy. Until then, when at a distance, be prepared to feel this a lot, or perform the technique before he/she does. 3- Grip kick. Oh boy, is this one fun. The effective way of using this, is usually to grap your opponent, who will usually be a Darksider with force pull for technique #2, therefore he/she will be attempting to force pull you to counter thr force grip. Therefore, whilst performing the grip kick it is very important to constantly change the vector position of their player model, to ensure they don't cancel your grip. Whilst doing this, you will also want to 'flipkick' then to drain their health even more. There are many ways to make this technique more effective, such as moving your crosshair to make your character model look at an inclined angle towards the sky, so as to kick knocks them into their air, and when you let go you can perform "the splat" which is basically, when you bring them back down to the ground at such a speed they take fall damage, even though they are not that high up. 4- Force flipkick - Another common move, where as instead of using saber throw and force pull, you force pull them into your flip kick. ... and that's about it. That is really all I see in full force duels. The situation however is very different on a low force regen rate server, where light siders actually stand a chance, and will frustrate both themselves (with boredom) and their opponent (with anxiety to kill) by drawing out the duel even longer. They will however be able to use techniques #2 and #4, wahey! They don't get totally screwed over. Protect is nice, but remember they're going to flipkick you and force pull + saber throw until your body goes limb, so your only delaying the inevitable. And mind trick, well force sense > mind trick, so it's next to useless, unless you want to distract them for the second it takes them to enable level 1 force sense and see you again, at which you may gain the advantage to hit force pull before them. Those are the techniques which dominate full force duels, and I'll leave the readers to decide for themselves if they are exploits or not. They are the only way to win now sadly, because of the majority of other full force duellers who use them, so if your against exploits, and consider these exploits or "cheap", then your not going to have fun on public servers in full force duels. Oh, and sorry for publicly announcing my opinions on the opinions of another. I understand that everyone here has the right to express their thoughts without being attacked, and that we want this thread to stay happy with flowers and nice things, so i'll refrain from letting it happen again, no matter how emotional someones response may make me feel. <3 _______________ Fervent supporter of duelling - leave a message if you would like to battle! Married to Masta. |
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Odan-Wei Belouve - Student 
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Quote: In my opinion, to beat the exploits, I believe that you have to use them to see their strengths and weaknesses. Wrong or right, unless you find out for yourself, you are going to get pwned with them if you don't know what you are doing. That sounds too much like what Darksiders say to justify their use of the Dark Side _______________ Padawan and brother to SmilyKrazy - Adopted in the Belouve Family by Fizz and Bubu, BELOUVE ON! - Vladarion, you'll always be in my heart and memories - Spam-Padawan of Jacen Aratan  - [DJ is my beloved wife! - JA Family: Brothers:
Virtue, Furi0us, Vladarion, Hardwired, Janus, Axion, D@RtHM@UL, Motrec, Mike , xAnAtOs , Luke Skywalker; Little bro to SilkMonkey ; Special kind of brother to Kenyon ; Sisters in-law: Rosered, Ain-Soph Aur] Photoshop works: click here |
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Balian - Ex-Student |
well put noob. 2nd! _______________ What man is a man who does not make the world better. |
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n00b - Student 
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In my opinion, to beat the exploits, I believe that you have to use them to see their strengths and weaknesses. Wrong or right, unless you find out for yourself, you are going to get pwned with them if you don't know what you are doing. You aren't going to learn them from JAK+ so find out about them some other way. Nobody will criticize you for doing what the heck you want to do on the public servers. The JA is supposed to be a stepping stone. You learn the basics here and then move on. You may want to hide your ability to do exploits when on a JA server, but on the publics, do whatever you want. Nobody says you have to be the greatest saberist of all time to have fun but yourself. If fame and glory on a ladder is what you want, learn the exploits. If not, find people who don't use them and make friends. The choice is entirely up to you. You can't force people into a box you create so you win more often. Depending on the company you keep depends on how you will play. Even on JA servers you will find people using the exploits. There are so many people here to make friends with, I find it hard to believe that one could not seek out the proper people in order to have fun. If exploiters disturb you, stay away from them. I've done that several times and it hurts your pride, believe me, at first. Once you see you can do what you want to do, it becomes an easy thing to pick and choose who you will play. I usually try fighting everyone once and if they piss me off, well, I find someone else. Just say no. The JA community has a large number of people in it and there are a lot of people out there who can help you understand exploits better than here. If you came to the JA for exploit training, you will have trouble finding it. If you came here to learn how to pwn everyone you meet, you won't find that. If you came here to train people on how to use exploits, you will have a hard time finding an audience. We're here to have fun and some people come on the servers to pwn everyone cause there are so many easy targets. Let it pass. They come and go so fast it makes your head spin. Don't worry if they seem better than you because you just mastered a few techniques so far. You get better and more creative as time moves on. When you feel you have trained as much as you can here at the JA, you will do very well on the publics, trust me. You won't necessarily be the top dog in your clan or group, but at least you won't totally suck after its all over. You came here to learn and grow and that's what is going to happen, exploits or no exploits. Try your hardest, practice everything you can with watchful eyes on you then take the leap into the world of public servers. You will not have all the knowledge, but you'll have a damn good portion of it. _______________ Gone but hopefully not forgotten... |
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NofrikinfuN - Retired 
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This entire thread blows my mind. lol But seriously, to those claiming exploits are something you need to win... Learning a solid set of basics kept me in decent standing during my time here. (Admittedly, I lost more than I liked to.) Back in my day, the equivalent of the stuff you're all talking about would have probably been the yellow "scissors". A silly, but sadly effective seizure, which could knock off a big chunk of health. Sure, you could fight scissors with scissors, and come out with a random winner... I just always preferred the basics. Feeling like I've won while at a sort of disadvantage always makes my day. Blah, reminiscing. |
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3th - Retired 
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absorb > saber throw/pull so no, it's not an exploit as for the scripts discussion, i think they're uber lame (isn't there a wiggle script out there? i swore i've seen it used on the BWN). i consider them (scripts in general) probably the worst of any "exploiting." but that's just my opinion. _______________ this is the internet, be serious damn it! This comment was edited by 3th on May 25 2005 05:05am. |
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Buzz - Student 
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Keep it civil and end the name calling and calling out of people to do this or that. We're not going to be banning anyone for using exploits. If that however is your method of fighting, you aren't likely to make many of the staff members here happy with you. As for ways to beat exploits, well we teach moves and techniques that are considered legitimate and knowing them will help you against these exploits. And I'm sure that if you ask a trainer how to counter a particular exploit and they have knowledge on it they'll share with your their methods. Afterall that's what they're supposed to do. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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Hardwired - Retired 
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Well..if it's of any substance to this..But.. The saber throw/pull has been in use since JK2. It wasn't considered an exploit at that time...So i see little reason to consider it one now. - HW _______________ ::Nothing wrong with a little shooting.....as long as the right people get shot:: |
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Squibit - Student 
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Quote: Specifically throw pulling. Well, firstly let me say i try hard to avoid exploiting... Let me also remind you that JA staff are not permitted to train exploits... So, when i'm taught by a JA trainer (Skyler[JAT]) in a class specificaly dedicated to training the art of sabre throw, how to do this move. I would say that its probably seen as legitimate by most of the academy... Having said that however, I can't right now think of any reason why it should NOT be counted as an exploit... Other than perhaps it makes sense, that you can't focus on using the force to prevent yourself from being sent flying, at the same time as blocking an incomming sabre... but by that logic, it should be impossible to control an airbourn sabre at the same time as using the force to pull someone over... I sure hope this isnt seen as an exploit because i've got quite good at it now Another (fairly poor) argument, is that its used in full force battles, and generaly in full force battles alot of things go (ye-olde grip kicking springs to mind). _______________ Quote: fiZZe: its SIR Fizzy Fluffy :p Quote: FiZZ[JAK]: that was what I call a counter Ah, things you only ever expect to hear once 
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Jake Kainite - Student
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Ok guys I'm no admin so technically I can do nothing to you, but I started this thread to get some opinions and a nice mature discussion on this topic. I don't care who started it or if you hate eachothers guts, keep it off my damn thread! *clears throat* Now, another query. Specifically throw pulling. Undoubtably its an exploit as it takses advantage of the engine only coping with one animation at a time (can't block a saber and push/pull at same time, although there was a rumour that crouching in the air blocked this move....)but what about the morale view? A load of people have called me lame cos I use it ALOT, I proper spam it, but it works, just wondered if anyone else uses it alot and whats your view? _______________ Apprenctice of Jedi Master Ascari (deceased) Descended from a line of great Jedi Will argue any point of view from any side
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NotSoLittleCaesar - Student
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Quote:
Quote: well tbh, if they poked me, in a ladder match, i would just uber sway with red , althoguht it wouldnt stop it, it would rate a block..half the damage. and btw ye 'tough shit' and tbh i dont care xd ive faught alot of pokers. indeed they beat me yes. but i can put up a fight. now. You truly have no idea. actualy i do. _______________ Quote: I mostly agree oh Lord of the squeezy mop
This comment was edited by NotSoLittleCaesar on May 24 2005 11:00pm. |
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Masta - Jedi Council 
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Quote: Theres nearly no difference to spins if you dont stop the mouse movement right in the moment you see your opponent infront of you. With other words, beating poke with spins/sways isnt what i call "fighting pokers legitly". Try not relying on exploits at all sir. _______________ Find out more about the Jedi Academy Aurochs here and more about Masta here! Married to Kain. This comment was edited by Masta on May 24 2005 10:06pm. |
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NotSoLittleCaesar - Student
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Quote:
Quote: Id like to clear something up too. Most people associate exploiters with high sensitivity. Mine is at 24.75 which is within the range of the bar under controls. The reason for this is I play all my FPS at high sens cause I want to be able to rturn around and shoot someoen in the face. I think its wrong when you go beyond that bar which I think maxes at 40 so.... just to clear something up for you, 24.75 in the swing of FPS gaming is absurdly high, most of the top level clanners in cs/dod use under 5. generally between 1-3 for most of them. that doesn't detract from your ability to turn around at all, at a sens of 1.3 i can use under the width of my mousepad in one hand movement to do a 180 degree turn. 1.3 compared with 24.75, jk3 is obviously a different game from cs/dod but the sensitivitys are the same, so i dont think saying around 25 being needed to turn around would be an accurate statement. i use 40 _______________ Quote: I mostly agree oh Lord of the squeezy mop
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Kainz00r - Jedi Knight 
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Quote: well tbh, if they poked me, in a ladder match, i would just uber sway with red , althoguht it wouldnt stop it, it would rate a block..half the damage. and btw ye 'tough shit' and tbh i dont care xd ive faught alot of pokers. indeed they beat me yes. but i can put up a fight. now. You truly have no idea. _______________ Fervent supporter of duelling - leave a message if you would like to battle! Married to Masta. |
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NotSoLittleCaesar - Student
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Quote: Talion, your such a fool. Get a friend of yours, join the saber ladder 2on2 division found at www.esl-europe.net , challenge *aiming, get owned by pokes (you will, I know you will, it is... inevitable) and then come tell us all "tough ****". kthx well tbh, if they poked me, in a ladder match, i would just uber sway with red , althoguht it wouldnt stop it, it would rate a block..half the damage. and btw ye 'tough shit' and tbh i dont care xd ive faught alot of pokers. indeed they beat me yes. but i can put up a fight. now. -tal- _______________ Quote: I mostly agree oh Lord of the squeezy mop
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Rainer - Student |
Quote:
Quote: The default sens is 5.... I play with 7 because of a small mouse pad... Exploiter !!! Way back in Jedi Outcast FaDed told me to play with 100 when he was training me... I think it was a typo or something, but I just accepted it and learned to play with it. Then I stopped playing. When I started playing again I couldn't play with 100, but I do play with 30 now just because 5 feels too darn low. _______________ The Jedi formally known as Ranja. ---------------------- "I can list among my experience and skills: leadership, extensive travel, logistical organization, intimate understanding of firearms, and a knowledge of security measures at numerous banks." - Jesse James |
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NotSoLittleCaesar - Student
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uhh..-hides his 40 sense >_> _______________ Quote: I mostly agree oh Lord of the squeezy mop
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Balian - Ex-Student |
yes i like high sens because idont feel like having carpal tunnel when im 25 in dod my sens is about toward the high end however much that is... Just a personal preference might I had i havent exploited for quite some time now. And Kain hasnt gotten a post locked in about 3 keep i tup bud you can do it On the notion of scripts i am thoroughly against them, no different then an aimbot where is the fun if the PC does it for you just turn a bot on super high skills with your name and there is your script. <3! EDIT: my desk is small as well and i have a tiny mouse pad. WORD! _______________ What man is a man who does not make the world better. This comment was edited by Balian on May 24 2005 06:10pm. |
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Jake Kainite - Student 
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Well having a high sens isn't just for turning around, think about it in a normal aiming sense. Some people just like a touch sensitive aiming system, basically tapping the mouse in one direction will aim at their target making switching from one target to another much easier. Once you learn to control a high sens I can imagine it being much more effective than a lower sense just due to the amount of extra movement you have for the same distance of hand movment. Next section of this topic, scripts? What do you all think? I know move scripts and stuff are kinda pointless cos you're locked in the script till it finishes, but what about the energize script and yaw speed scripts? _______________ Apprenctice of Jedi Master Ascari (deceased) Descended from a line of great Jedi Will argue any point of view from any side
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