| Knights of the Old Republic MMORPG? | |
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Kenyon - Lord of the Dance  |
Update: Virtue has been so kind as to establish a guild. It can be found here: http://www.swtor.com/guilds/18182/jedi-academy
Got this rumor from Wikipedia: Quote: On April 25th, 2007, a rumor came about that BioWare was secretly in development on a Knights of the Old Republic MMORPG. Stemming from the latest issue of EGM, the rumor contained little information to support the claim. However, investigation into the matter reveals that there is more to the rumor than EGM's single suggestion. In early 2006 BioWare opened an Austin branch to develop an unnamed MMORPG. This alone confirmed an inevitable BioWare MMO, but the choice of Richard Vogel as a leader of the project is what largely suggest that the currently unnamed MMO is set in the KOTOR universe. Vogel was one of the project leaders behind the sci-fi MMO Star Wars Galaxies. SWG was held down by being set in a universe where continuity prevented any true story development (such as seen in WoW) and SOE assuming creative control eventually caused the removal of the things that had kept SWG's hardcore fanbase playing among them the skill tree system, which allowed for more customizable characters and drastic changes to the game's combat and character profession selection.
SOE has been confirmed to have lost the Star Wars license, though there has been no confirmation that BioWare will be producing a KotOR MMORPG. This post was edited by Kenyon on Mar 23 2011 05:48pm. |
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| Comments |
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planK - Jedi Council 
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This thread was made in the summer of 2007 - and now we're playing the game in December 2011. Wow. |
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JK13 /// jaws. - Student 
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The xp thing could be related to the well known convention in the MMO industry to adjust the game balance for demos and beta in order to make the game easier. Fastest way to give people a negative impression of the game is to have them take numerous dirtnaps and level very slowly.
Meanwhile I think that Kain's post contained an unbiased look at the sorts of pros and cons I was expecting from this game. Given this information, I only anticipate Guild Wars 2 even more. _______________ It's a false hologram, it IS artificial... |
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Alex Dkana - Staff 
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Quote: Joined really late in the match, not sure why! That happened to me a couple of times, kinda disorientating. Glad to hear they have altered the XP levels, although by half might be a bit much, not sure. _______________ To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield | Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken | Rhaiko D'kana - SWTOR EU Guild Co-Founder | Is it what the teacher, teaches? Or what the student learns? A Dkana |
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R2D2 - Staff 
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Quote: They lowered the xp considerably earlier in the week. They did grant too much xp, but I feel like they were lowered a little too much.
Tested it just now. Got about half of what I got before, 20k exp to 10k exp (both were PvP wins, with me doing mediocre). I earned about 1.5k credits in that PvP warzone match. Joined really late in the match, not sure why! _______________ "Do or do not, there is no try" Jedi Master Yoda Dual Saberist This comment was edited by R2D2 on Nov 28 2011 01:49am. |
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Tallepyon - Student 
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They lowered the xp considerably earlier in the week. They did grant too much xp, but I feel like they were lowered a little too much. |
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Alex Dkana - Staff 
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Really? I last played on Tuesday - was a new build rolled out for the weekend? It still seemed pretty hefty, although maybe that's in part because I was such a low level at the time. _______________ To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield | Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken | Rhaiko D'kana - SWTOR EU Guild Co-Founder | Is it what the teacher, teaches? Or what the student learns? A Dkana |
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R2D2 - Staff 
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Quote: One thing with warzones is currently the xp granted for even losing one is quite high. You can level quite happily through warzone play. I'm not sure whether this is a good thing or not, it could get lowered a bit for release maybe.
Actually, I heard the exp took a huge reduction recently in this latest build. I'm going to test out PvP today on my Vanguard to verify this change. Previously, I was getting almost 20k exp per successful warzone and perhaps half of that when losing. On top of that, I was even getting 5k creds, which is quite amazing at these lower levels  _______________ "Do or do not, there is no try" Jedi Master Yoda Dual Saberist |
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Alex Dkana - Staff
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For what it's worth I haven't pvp'd much in MMOs since SWG but thought I'd try out TOR's early. I played my first Warzone at level 12 and had a good time! As R2 says the stat bolstering means you aren't insta-killed by the other players, but your lack of skills and gear still puts you in the slightly inferior position your lower level warrants. It certainly makes it more of a challenge, but because the warzone is so team orientated it can be quite fun being handicapped as such.
There are three out there and all three have different objectives. They have some issues but it looks to be a strong start and if they build off that beginning to add warzones similar to how LotRO adds skirmishes then I can see it being popular. One thing with warzones is currently the xp granted for even losing one is quite high. You can level quite happily through warzone play. I'm not sure whether this is a good thing or not, it could get lowered a bit for release maybe. Oh and I kind of agree with Kain that the skill tree things were a bit uninspiring, but it's not an aspect of RPGs I have ever really gotten into much. As R2 says you still get the signature 'moves' of your specialisation though. _______________ To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield | Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken | Rhaiko D'kana - SWTOR EU Guild Co-Founder | Is it what the teacher, teaches? Or what the student learns? A Dkana |
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R2D2 - Staff
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Quote:
Quote:
Have you played PvP? What are your opinions on exploration options? Crew skills? I'm curious
Nah, I didn't bother with the 1x level PvP - I didn't think it would be very balanced. From my mmo experience there isn't much care for non-max level PvP balance, as it would be a colossal amount of effort and coordination to ensure that every class growth was 'even' throughout each class spec journey to level 50. I respect that, but I didn't want my first PvP experience to be something silly that might leave me feeling jaded. You should try Warzone PvP. Bioware has implemented a way to scale your stats to be within 10% of the highest level player in the warzone (it is called stat "bolstering" ). So, you will be able to keep up with the high level players. The real disadvantage at lower levels is the lack of skills at your disposal, especially if you aren't far in your AC. However, if you PvP starting in your mid to upper teens, I expect you'd be able to do mediocre at least. My Imperial Agent Operative, at level 17, was able to be in the middle of the pack consistently for PvP score. One nice thing about PvP also is that you'll earn rewards based on DPS, tanking, and/or healing. My Vanguard rarely gets the last hit in PvP, but my ability to redirect damage and guard other players is how I earn my points. _______________ "Do or do not, there is no try" Jedi Master Yoda Dual Saberist This comment was edited by R2D2 on Nov 27 2011 03:54pm. |
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Kainz00r - Jedi Knight 
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Quote: Have you played PvP? What are your opinions on exploration options? Crew skills? I'm curious
Nah, I didn't bother with the 1x level PvP - I didn't think it would be very balanced. From my mmo experience there isn't much care for non-max level PvP balance, as it would be a colossal amount of effort and coordination to ensure that every class growth was 'even' throughout each class spec journey to level 50. I respect that, but I didn't want my first PvP experience to be something silly that might leave me feeling jaded. I was more concerned about making sure I would enjoy the PvE gameplay of my intended class for the early launch we have coming soon with this beta, which I'm fairly confident I'm happy with. I've only tried sith inquisitor (assassin) and imperial agent (sniper), enjoyed the tools with both. The staff saber is oddly growing on me quite fast, but I'll always be a single saberist at heart. Above all however I bow to aesthetics, so it was always going to be inquisitor over warrior for me. Crew skills I haven't played with yet, although my friend who was playing simultaneously did give it a go. Sounded pretty cool actually, another tool which makes you feel your companions are more 'real'. With regards to your response on my comments about talent trees, my point is that it's a step backwards compared to WoW's developments. Sure, you still get new skills simply for becoming an assassin or sorcerer as you level, but you don't get the cool talent tree specific ones until way, way later. Often the gaining of these skills in mmo can redefine your rotation or combat potential. WoW recognised this, and now gives you such skills at level 10 the moment you choose a tree. I was hoping swtor would do the same, but unfortunately not. It's not a huge deal, more of a minor criticism. No reason that the low level experience should be missing 'core' abilities of the intended path they're walking for levelling. _______________ Fervent supporter of duelling - leave a message if you would like to battle! Married to Masta. |
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R2D2 - Staff
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Quote: There is tons of grind in this game. You can't go two quests without someone asking you to slay x amount of y, or collect a amount of b. Not that I mind this, it's what I have come to expect of an mmo - but as we know it's not everyone's cup of tea. Artoo is correct in that a lot of these are optional, or appear as 'bonus' objectives, but the truth is that if you avoid these you're both skipping content of the game you're paying to experience and 'slowing' your pace down compared to peers, and missing out on loot and experience, the two fundamentals of levelling in an mmo alongside story.
Grind, to me, is when you have to go out of your way to slaughter mobs in order to level up or earn required achievements (ex. traits in LOTRO). These bonus quests, when designed correctly, will finish on your way to the main objectives without you needing to go out of your way to decimate mobs. There are still some bonus objectives that have too high of a mob count and could use some adjustment, but overall, I really don't feel like I'm ever grinding. Quote: Which brings me to my next point, it's wonderfully refreshing to experience the voice acting from all npcs - it really helps bring the world to life. However, I can't say any of the dialogue hasn't been anything but predictable so far... the kind sith gets the rough end of things, the rude one ends up being your rival, 'good and evil' a la light and dark side are not moral dilemmas, but more 'be kind or be an ass'. The Sith choices are so far disappointing in dialogue, often being either mundane, predictable demands for respect, disregard for authority or the slaying of weaklings. Speaking of which, they really, REALLY love their force lightning with the Sith. Interrogation? Fry 'em. Killing off a lesser being? Fry 'em. Someone back talking? ... yeah, fry 'em. Tasked with opening a datacron in an ancient Sith tomb that no one has been able to pry loose or open for 1,000 years? Yeah... bzzt...
Lightning is fun and all, but it is very overused. I'm guessing you played Sith Inquisitor? I find the Sith stories to be predictable, and there is an overuse of lightning for the SI that I don't really care about. The dialogue options themselves do become predictable. I found the other Empire classes to have better options, but they also sometimes recycle similar phrases, which gets annoying. Some of the stories (my experience with the Trooper for example) have a generic soldier story with amazing twists. Romancing is always fun though, along with most companion interactions. Quote: Back on the topic of dialogue and voice acting etc however, I do enjoy that we often get to add our input to dialogue. This is especially interesting in a group where you roll for the decision of what to do - I find it rather interesting to discover how other people would approach the situations. This is a very sharp, double edged sword though when it takes place in a 'flashpoint', the swtor equivalent of your standard mmo dungeon. Yes, these dialogues occur and yes, you have to go through them every. single. time. you go there, experienced flashpoint veterans or no. And it may be a result of the 'stress test' numbers that the servers are currently being hammered by, but the dialogue lags waiting for people to load to the choice point. I don't know why, as you can't opt to skip or speed it up as far as I'm aware, which you can opt to do when playing solo.
Multiplayer dialogue gives an interesting dynamic to grouping. The whole waiting for party member bit happens when you have other members with slower loading times or slow response times when choosing their choice. I recommend doing a "full" run listening to everything on your first flashpoint run, and if you decide to repeat it later on, see if others in your group will agree to a "fast" run, involving all members skipping the dialogue. I really don't mind waiting. There's a timer on the making choices, so you really don't have to wait more than 30 seconds or less. The choices in flashpoints really can drive the direction of the flashpoint. There tend to be multiple paths you can take (personified by the Kill or Spare the Captain on the Black Talon), which add to replayability. Quote: Which brings me neatly to companions - these guys are awesome. They help fill a role you may not necessarily be able to function without when solo'ing. You could be a healer lacking DPS, so you bring your DPS companion, or a DPS with no tank to soak up the damage, bring your tank companion. Mechanics aside though, this backfires if you don't happen to like the particular companion who fills that gap. Still, such is life. They seem to have really fleshed out the companions, allowing you to equip and upgrade their equipment, change their look 'style', talk to them privately and develop your relationship with them as well as bring them with you everywhere you go (except, of course, into a full flashpoint group or battleground). All in all, I think the companion system is great and enhances the gamer's experience, building on a good foundation that guild wars introduced with it's hirelings. It's not perfect but it's a strong plus for the game.
Companions aren't really influenced by GW at all, more like how KOTOR treated them. As for the companion comments, I agree with it being a fun system that adds a lot to the game. Regarding companion roles, your first companion usually complements you well (SW and JK are a little different imo). Either way, you will get each type of companion role by the time you reach 50. These roles are melee tank, melee dps, ranged tank, ranged dps, and healer/support. These are their main roles, but there tends to be a secondary role too which you can switch to by placing your companion into that respective mode. The first trooper companion has a sniper mode which is good for DPS, and he also has a more tanky mode as well. Quote: Combat and animations are very meh. I wasn't impressed, but then I did not expect to be. I had seen previous footage of the game and whilst some things have improved it's still very basic. The characters run akin to an awkward jog involving the precarious balance of haste and constipation. Two of the four 'body types' for males are ridiculous too, with one being unhealthily and ridiculously obese, and the other looking almost fourteen years old, and somewhat malnourished. This was a big let down for me, as I'm a huge fan of in depth character design but your scope for creativity is narrow here. The facial presets are pretty good at least, but don't expect several sliders for your various body appendages.
Animations really depend on your class. As for running animations, maybe I don't pay attention to it that much, or perhaps I play classes that look fine... never really saw anything that stood out to me. Maybe you are more critical than me when it comes to these animations. As for combat, if you want something rather unique, try a cover class. I found the melee classes to be just like most MMOs out there, but the cover classes are quite a different story. Utilizing cover and cover-specific abilities requires some careful setup and tactical preparation. Character customization I do find lacking and little weird. Some people like the obese look, but I never go with that. The anemic look fits with a few classes, but it still looks odd. Some customization options are still lacking. Bioware has done shown quite a few iterations of customization options throughout the builds I've been part of. I wonder if a new set of options will be there at launch or not. Quote: When I finally reached level 10, I was disappointed with my class talent specialisation skill trees. For the early half of the game, you'll spend talent points getting rather unexciting passive buffs to your skills or character as a sith assassin. Quite the opposite of exciting, and to make matters worse the cool new moves are either halfway up the tree or at the very end of them. This is a problem that makes low level gameplay less involving and exciting compared to that of a higher level (but still not max level) character.
Hmm, I disagree here. The talent points build you up to those nice class-tree specific skills, but your AC itself gets unique skills and passives. As an example, Trooper can go Vanguard (Tank/DPS) or Commando (Heals/DPS). Vanguard can use shields as their main passive initially. Commandos can use assault cannons. Within the first 10 levels in either AC, you'll learn AC-specific skills that are the foundation of your AC. I'm quite familiar with Vanguard, so I can give examples. Vanguard gets "Guard" (protect an ally / reduce threat), "Ion Cell" (tanking stance / ammo), "Ion Pulse" (reduces mob damage), "Reactive Shield" (25% dmg reduction for a limited time), and "Neural Jolt" (taunt). The skill trees give additional capability to these skills or passives (as you mentioned). Working your way up the skill tree will unlock additional skills, roughly 3 or 4 new skills. I think you are missing the fact that you are indeed unlocking AC-specific skills throughout your progression. Quote: Oh yeah, you have a force alignment, even as a non force sensitive character. It affects what outfits you can wear, and is decided by your dialogue decisions. You have to be a jackass more often than a sly, sinister mastermind to wear your sith lord robes o' pwn. Sucks, but Bioware aren't famous for morally conflicting choices in their alignment systems so again this shouldn't be a shocker to anyone. Interestingly enough however, you can end up as a light sided sith and vice versa for dark sided jedi. I still expect people will be annoyed that they have to artifically choose their dialogue options rather than play out their story if they're concerned with what gear options are available to them.
There will be some neutral gear eventually. I've been in the beta long enough to see how the gear has been evolving. At first, only the high alignment tier gear had the nice open mod slots in them. You can easily get equivalent equipment through other means in the game. You are NOT forced into going one way or the other. Right now, there is no neutral gear, so picking one direction seems like the only way. I believe that will change once that gear is added in. Basically, the appearance is different, but that's about it. Really don't see why people complain so much about this, perhaps lack of experience with the game. I'm glad to see you are giving the game a chance. It's the best MMO experience I've had. I really found no reason to play other classes in other MMOs since you go through the same exact content and some exact story. SWTOR is different. Some of the content overlaps but the class story is totally unique. I found the class story and world arcs to be well-written. Have you played PvP? What are your opinions on exploration options? Crew skills? I'm curious _______________ "Do or do not, there is no try" Jedi Master Yoda Dual Saberist |
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Kainz00r - Jedi Knight
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My impression after an introductory hands on with swtor this weekend;
There is tons of grind in this game. You can't go two quests without someone asking you to slay x amount of y, or collect a amount of b. Not that I mind this, it's what I have come to expect of an mmo - but as we know it's not everyone's cup of tea. Artoo is correct in that a lot of these are optional, or appear as 'bonus' objectives, but the truth is that if you avoid these you're both skipping content of the game you're paying to experience and 'slowing' your pace down compared to peers, and missing out on loot and experience, the two fundamentals of levelling in an mmo alongside story. Which brings me to my next point, it's wonderfully refreshing to experience the voice acting from all npcs - it really helps bring the world to life. However, I can't say any of the dialogue hasn't been anything but predictable so far... the kind sith gets the rough end of things, the rude one ends up being your rival, 'good and evil' a la light and dark side are not moral dilemmas, but more 'be kind or be an ass'. The Sith choices are so far disappointing in dialogue, often being either mundane, predictable demands for respect, disregard for authority or the slaying of weaklings. Speaking of which, they really, REALLY love their force lightning with the Sith. Interrogation? Fry 'em. Killing off a lesser being? Fry 'em. Someone back talking? ... yeah, fry 'em. Tasked with opening a datacron in an ancient Sith tomb that no one has been able to pry loose or open for 1,000 years? Yeah... bzzt... Lightning is fun and all, but it is very overused. Back on the topic of dialogue and voice acting etc however, I do enjoy that we often get to add our input to dialogue. This is especially interesting in a group where you roll for the decision of what to do - I find it rather interesting to discover how other people would approach the situations. This is a very sharp, double edged sword though when it takes place in a 'flashpoint', the swtor equivalent of your standard mmo dungeon. Yes, these dialogues occur and yes, you have to go through them every. single. time. you go there, experienced flashpoint veterans or no. And it may be a result of the 'stress test' numbers that the servers are currently being hammered by, but the dialogue lags waiting for people to load to the choice point. I don't know why, as you can't opt to skip or speed it up as far as I'm aware, which you can opt to do when playing solo. The game gives you a heads up as to whether a choice is the arse response, or the messiah response. Although this tends to be obvious, there are non-alignment altering dialogue junctions that instead affect your companion's opinion of you. Which brings me neatly to companions - these guys are awesome. They help fill a role you may not necessarily be able to function without when solo'ing. You could be a healer lacking DPS, so you bring your DPS companion, or a DPS with no tank to soak up the damage, bring your tank companion. Mechanics aside though, this backfires if you don't happen to like the particular companion who fills that gap. Still, such is life. They seem to have really fleshed out the companions, allowing you to equip and upgrade their equipment, change their look 'style', talk to them privately and develop your relationship with them as well as bring them with you everywhere you go (except, of course, into a full flashpoint group or battleground). All in all, I think the companion system is great and enhances the gamer's experience, building on a good foundation that guild wars introduced with it's hirelings. It's not perfect but it's a strong plus for the game. Combat and animations are very meh. I wasn't impressed, but then I did not expect to be. I had seen previous footage of the game and whilst some things have improved it's still very basic. The characters run akin to an awkward jog involving the precarious balance of haste and constipation. Two of the four 'body types' for males are ridiculous too, with one being unhealthily and ridiculously obese, and the other looking almost fourteen years old, and somewhat malnourished. This was a big let down for me, as I'm a huge fan of in depth character design but your scope for creativity is narrow here. The facial presets are pretty good at least, but don't expect several sliders for your various body appendages. When I finally reached level 10, I was disappointed with my class talent specialisation skill trees. For the early half of the game, you'll spend talent points getting rather unexciting passive buffs to your skills or character as a sith assassin. Quite the opposite of exciting, and to make matters worse the cool new moves are either halfway up the tree or at the very end of them. This is a problem that makes low level gameplay less involving and exciting compared to that of a higher level (but still not max level) character. World of Warcraft fixed this by forcing you to choose one of your three talent trees and being unable to branch out to your other two until you spend a certain amount in your chosen primary tree - as a reward, you got given your tree's trademark skill, which instantly fixed the gap in 'fun' between a level 10 levelling character and a level 50 one, which had always been a problem. This is now a problem swtor will return to us, which is a shame, and I can only hope they update their levelling system at some point to adjust for this problem. Oh yeah, you have a force alignment, even as a non force sensitive character. It affects what outfits you can wear, and is decided by your dialogue decisions. You have to be a jackass more often than a sly, sinister mastermind to wear your sith lord robes o' pwn. Sucks, but Bioware aren't famous for morally conflicting choices in their alignment systems so again this shouldn't be a shocker to anyone. Interestingly enough however, you can end up as a light sided sith and vice versa for dark sided jedi. I still expect people will be annoyed that they have to artifically choose their dialogue options rather than play out their story if they're concerned with what gear options are available to them. All in all, swtor on first impression hasn't blown me away but it also hasn't disappointed me. I've got what I expected, more or less, and best of all no major glitches or bugs halted my gaming experience, which is pretty awesome for a freshly launching mmo. Then again, I did only reach the teens of the levels in a game that's been in closed beta for some time too, so take that praise with a pinch of salt I suppose. Looking forward to my month's game time that I've pre ordered still, as it's obvious the more enjoyable content of the game will be restricted to the high levels. _______________ Fervent supporter of duelling - leave a message if you would like to battle! Married to Masta. |
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Carve - Student 
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I can definitely understand Mastz00r's concerns here. I have the same ones myself. I really want to get into this game but if there's one thing I can't stand it's two things: Fetch quests, and grinding. R2's post is definitely relieving my anxiousness a bit, but really JP is right - at this juncture it's too early to tell without some more solid playtime. I'd recommend being wary of judging a game purely on its early-game content, too. The focus is going to be there to draw players in, so the quality level may not be indicative of the rest of the game. A brief free trial would be a great way to resolve that. I for one won't be buying this day one, and will likely hold out until they release a trial unless there's an overwhelmingly positive reception.
So, with all that said, it's probably best to keep an open mind and reserve judgment, positive or negative, until we have a bit more experience with what the gameplay is actually like. _______________ © This comment was edited by Carve on Nov 25 2011 09:21am. |
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Masta - Jedi Council 
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Quote: This site needs more R2's posting and less Masta's...
I like how you attack the person, rather than his arguments. If you want to jump in on the discussion, feel free, if you're just here to insult me then get the hell out. Although i do enjoy watching people attempt to prove their beliefs with ignorance and pure opinion. _______________ Find out more about the Jedi Academy Aurochs here and more about Masta here! Married to Kain. |
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JP - Academy Pimp 
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This site needs more R2's posting and less Masta's...
Although i do enjoy watching people attempt to prove their beliefs with ignorance and pure opinion. _______________ Come on now, every Generation X boy wanted to be Luke Skywalker. Is it because he was a whiney farm boy from some backwater hack planet? No, it's because he was a FREAKING JEDI. He could block lasers with his lightsaber. He could levitate droids & rocks & crap with his mind. Come on, he choked two pig dudes with just a simple gesture. He cut off Darth Vader's hand and kicked him down a flight of stairs. He got his @$$ zapped by lightning from the geezer Emperor, stood up and said "s'at all you got b!tc#??" |
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R2D2 - Staff
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I've been saving my post for the weekend. I'll try to include facts about the game that aren't restricted by NDA.
Quote: One irksome rumour that has been mentioned a lot in favour of TOR is that it will feature multiple campaigns the length of Kotor bundled into one. Seriously? How can you possibly develop a number of games the length of Kotor in the sort time they've been working on TOR? Look how long it took them to put together Mass Effect 2, and that was a relatively short game. (A really good one, but albeit short game)
The thing is that I believe people are confusing content with voiceacting: five games worth of voice acting does not five games worth of content make. Bioware advertises the game is sort of like KOTOR 3 - 10, but that's in terms of the whole playtime per class and the amount of voiceover in the game in general. All 4 classes per faction share the same world quest arcs. The exception being that the starter worlds (4 in total) have 2 classes start on them. Each faction has access to unique planets and / or unique world quests, so a playthrough of both factions will have absolutely different content. The key point being made by Bioware is that each class has a unique class story that carries them throughout the game, with unique companions and unique voiceover (male and female). Each class most certainly does not have a KOTOR game's worth of content just for its story. Quote: What I can see is a hell of a lot of padding between sections, repetitive, grindy combat that we'll have to do, which will mean missions that take ten times longer than they should due to padding, and then we'll get to sit through long-winded cutscenes where we have to wait for someone to stop monologuing before we'll get the chance to make a choice. SWTOR does not have much grinding, surprisingly, for a MMO. A lot of sites posted reviews of their experience through their capital world (mid to upper teens), so I'm fairly certain what I'll say is covered somewhere else (and not NDA breaking). Basically, your main objectives on quests won't be to kill x number of mobs. You may have to retrieve something, find someone, or destroy something, sort of typical of MMOs, but you rarely, if ever, get a quest that requires simply to kill x number of mobs. Instead, while you're working your way to / from these quests, you'll get a bonus quest that pops up mentioning that if you do happen to kill x number of mobs, you'll get additional exp. A bonus quest is entirely optional, and if you don't want to finish it, you don't have to. From what I've seen, these bonus quests are built in such a way that you should be able to complete them seamlessly with your main objective. A few bonus quests even have stages, but I won't go into details on that. I'll talk about conversations next. Quote: Everything they've showed us thus far backs me up on this point. Go and track down some of the gameplay videos and you'll see that the game is terrible about monologuing. It isn't like Fallout3 where it'll go a few lines and then you get a choice, but often you'll be sitting around on your thumbs waiting for people to stop talking. And, to me, that doesn't equal game content. That equals an audiobook, and probably not the best audiobook ever written, either.
Masta, could you link these videos? Were they group content or solo content? Most of the conversations in SWTOR have multiple opportunities to pick a line of dialogue. Ultimately, some don't make an impact, while others do, usually the light / dark side choices which impact how the quest is completed. I could see how some flashpoint conversations could be rather long. With group content, there don't appear to be as many intermediary conversation choices since you'd have to wait on each member to choose their dialogue choice, which could really stretch out the conversation. Flashpoints, as opposed to a solo quest, do have multiple chances at making important decisions that steer the flashpoint in a certain direction. These directions can provide different playthroughs for the same flashpoint. Quote: I just think that people are seriously deluding themselves with how much game there'll be in TOR versus how much grind. A lot of Bioware's history backs me up on this as well. Consider the following: - Bioware are old hands at grind. They did it a lot in Dragon Age. The deep roads were actually what convinced me to outright stop playing on my last playthrough. Now Mass Effect 2 was a sans grind game by comparison (except for the effing resource gathering) and I appreciate that, but Bioware do know how to pad. They know how to pad with repetitive combat and mind-numbing minigames. There's evidence of this, I don't need to be accused of fabricating anything because anyone who's played a Bioware game knows I'm telling the truth about this. (Mass Effect 2 even would've been better without that hateful minigame.) - Name a subscription-based game (that doesn't have a free to play component) that's without grind. Go on. This isn't picking on Bioware, this is just me knowing about MMORPGs. Dungeons & Dragons Online? That had shedloads of it, where people pointed out how hilarious it was that it took you so long to gain one level in DDO versus tabletop, or how about Lord of the Rings Online? Stop picking on Turbine? Sure, I was just avoiding the big B and their World of Warcraft, how about Everquest II? Warhammer? Age of Conan? Aion? Do you see where I'm going with this? Now, if Bioware had said that they were developing Kotor3-6 then I would've been delighted, but what they've instead done is cannibalised the next two or three kotor games and filled them up with deep roads-like and minigame nonsense. There is just too much evidence to support this to ignore. It's the same old con that every MMORPG with a subscription has used since the dawn of time. And I actually feel sorry for those who trust in Bioware to not do the same. If it didn't have a subscription, my opinion would be a lot different, but that it does have a subscription tells me everything. I was actually mildly interested in TOR (in everything but art style, I always hated that) before they revealed it had a subscription. I haven't played Dragon Age or Mass Effect, so won't comment on their amounts of grind. I already stated how the general quest structure works for SWTOR, and how to me, it reduces or even lets you opt out of anything that may "appear" to be grind. As for mini-games, Bioware only has space combat in it right now, and it is most definitely NOT required to play the game at any point. KOTOR had the required cannon mini-game, but SWTOR does not have anything like that. A lot of the popular, sort of free, MMOs out there right now originally had subscriptions. When that model failed, they switched to a free / pay to play model. My experience comes from both DDO and LOTRO. DDO, I found out rather quick, was meant to be played with a group of friends. The pace of the game is really slow and majority of it is instanced as expected from the name. A lot of the content unlocks required points or small purchases. I did not play long enough to see if I could accrue enough points to unlock content. LOTRO, on the other hand, I've been playing for at least a year now. The game used to be purely subscription-based, then switched over to the free to play model we all know in the summer of 2010. The game is free until you hit the mid 20s (used to be upper teens). Then, you'll either need to grind out points to move onto the next area or buy Turbine points (their currency for their cash shop) to unlock additional areas. Expansions near the end-game were quite hard to unlock and require a LOT of grinding or breaking down and paying for them (either by purchasing Turbine points or buying a physical copy of the non-digital expansions) to unlock the content. What I'm trying to get at is F2P MMOs aren't really free and the free aspect to it can make the grind almost unbearable at times to unlock additional content. As for the graphic style, the environments look amazing, but the character models are still lacking for me. The species list is humanoid basically, nothing really unique. Twi'leks are about as far from human as you'll get. Some of the species limitations are due to the interactions with NPCs (kissing) and having to speak basic for all of the dialogue. Overall, the characters should look a little more realistic in my opinion, but are more cartoonish. While the models are lacking to me, I feel the unique armor appearances help make up for it. I hope SWTOR introduces a free trial, so all of you that won't purchase it actually get to experience the game on your own. It's really the only way you'll know if it will be appealing for you or not. _______________ "Do or do not, there is no try" Jedi Master Yoda Dual Saberist |
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Alex Dkana - Staff
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I'm not sure what your definition of grinding is, but TOR isn't about grinding in the way I understand it. There may be mobs you can grind for rep if you want, but it isn't required and plays out much as any other BioWare game - with Mob killing quests made optional parts of other quests a lot of the time.
It also feels very different to WoW to play. There are similarities, of course there are, but there are if anything more similarities to LotRO than WoW. As far as their claim of KotOR3+ goes I get the impression they were exaggerating in regards to the class quests and two factions. Each class feels like it's own story in a way that I have never seen in an MMO previously, and each faction is also very different. Whether it can live up to the lofty "-7" claim I'm not sure, but there is a helluva lot of content in there and it can easily feel like you are playing several different KotOR games if you switch around characters. I played GW2 and TOR at the same event (I'm a fan of both) and there really isn't as big a difference in the way they play as some suggest. GW2 is probably more revolutionary in some regards, but it is -definitely- still an MMO in the mould we are all familiar with. Both involve kill monster quests. I really feel you are underestimating TOR, but equally I'm not sure if it'll ever be the game you want it to be. I wanted KotOR 3 as well, I still hold out hope for a spin off TOR single player someday (I doubt it but still), however that boat has sailed and TOR has a lot to offer to the KotOR series. Lastly, yeah the Deep Roads is far from my favourite part of DAO, but if anything it harkens back to older games and the dungeon crawling style that has proved so popular with some. I don't really consider it grinding. To me ginding is standing in the same general area obliterating the same old mobs again and again. _______________ To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield | Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken | Rhaiko D'kana - SWTOR EU Guild Co-Founder | Is it what the teacher, teaches? Or what the student learns? A Dkana |
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Masta - Jedi Council
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I'll go on:
One irksome rumour that has been mentioned a lot in favour of TOR is that it will feature multiple campaigns the length of Kotor bundled into one. Seriously? How can you possibly develop a number of games the length of Kotor in the sort time they've been working on TOR? Look how long it took them to put together Mass Effect 2, and that was a relatively short game. (A really good one, but albeit short game) The thing is that I believe people are confusing content with voiceacting: five games worth of voice acting does not five games worth of content make. What I can see is a hell of a lot of padding between sections, repetitive, grindy combat that we'll have to do, which will mean missions that take ten times longer than they should due to padding, and then we'll get to sit through long-winded cutscenes where we have to wait for someone to stop monologuing before we'll get the chance to make a choice. Everything they've showed us thus far backs me up on this point. Go and track down some of the gameplay videos and you'll see that the game is terrible about monologuing. It isn't like Fallout3 where it'll go a few lines and then you get a choice, but often you'll be sitting around on your thumbs waiting for people to stop talking. And, to me, that doesn't equal game content. That equals an audiobook, and probably not the best audiobook ever written, either. I just think that people are seriously deluding themselves with how much game there'll be in TOR versus how much grind. A lot of Bioware's history backs me up on this as well. Consider the following: - Bioware are old hands at grind. They did it a lot in Dragon Age. The deep roads were actually what convinced me to outright stop playing on my last playthrough. Now Mass Effect 2 was a sans grind game by comparison (except for the effing resource gathering) and I appreciate that, but Bioware do know how to pad. They know how to pad with repetitive combat and mind-numbing minigames. There's evidence of this, I don't need to be accused of fabricating anything because anyone who's played a Bioware game knows I'm telling the truth about this. (Mass Effect 2 even would've been better without that hateful minigame.) - Name a subscription-based game (that doesn't have a free to play component) that's without grind. Go on. This isn't picking on Bioware, this is just me knowing about MMORPGs. Dungeons & Dragons Online? That had shedloads of it, where people pointed out how hilarious it was that it took you so long to gain one level in DDO versus tabletop, or how about Lord of the Rings Online? Stop picking on Turbine? Sure, I was just avoiding the big B and their World of Warcraft, how about Everquest II? Warhammer? Age of Conan? Aion? Do you see where I'm going with this? Now, if Bioware had said that they were developing Kotor3-6 then I would've been delighted, but what they've instead done is cannibalised the next two or three kotor games and filled them up with deep roads-like and minigame nonsense. There is just too much evidence to support this to ignore. It's the same old con that every MMORPG with a subscription has used since the dawn of time. And I actually feel sorry for those who trust in Bioware to not do the same. If it didn't have a subscription, my opinion would be a lot different, but that it does have a subscription tells me everything. I was actually mildly interested in TOR (in everything but art style, I always hated that) before they revealed it had a subscription. _______________ Find out more about the Jedi Academy Aurochs here and more about Masta here! Married to Kain. This comment was edited by Masta on Oct 29 2011 09:16am. |
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Masta - Jedi Council 
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I agree with that sentiment: TOR gameplay seems incredibly unexciting, and I'd even go as far to say that it's basically WoW with a SW reskin. The devs even said they took inspiration from WoW, because hey, if there's anyone going to make a successful WoW clone EVER, it must be Bioware.
Having said that, besides the terrible art direction, the game seems to be a very grindy version of Kotor, where you'll be playing with others now and then. If it's all about the story and individual player's experience, why not just make Kotor3? Instead, they add grind to it, make it multiplayer to make the grind less mind-numbing and slap on a subscription, because hey, you can't justify a grind-free, somewhat casual game with a subscription. In MMOs with subscriptions, in 5 months you'll have played about 10% of the content you would in a normal single player game - mostly because you have to grind X amount to reach content Y, which is not true for single player games at all. You consequently get more bang for your buck with single player games due to the lack of grinding. If you think about it, this is essentially what GW2 will be like as well, since there is no need for them to include grinding. And they've already spoken numerous times about their strong anti-grind policy. But Bioware is essentially going to take Kotor3, pad it out, add parts that you have to replay over and over and over, then slap an MMORPG genre tag on it, a subscription, and call it done. And that's better than them just making Kotor3, is it? This is the reason I can't possibly be excited about this game, it looks like a cheap cash-in because the art style is cheap and nasty, and it sounds like one because there's a subscription. In five months of TOR you won't have experienced 10% of the content you did in completing Portal 2 in one day. And this is why MMORPGs with grind are bad. _______________ Find out more about the Jedi Academy Aurochs here and more about Masta here! Married to Kain. |
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Alex Dkana - Staff
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To be fair, being able to sustain an unrealistic amount of damage in that fashion is a staple of most RPGs - not just MMOs. It isn't an easy dynamic to get away from even with a single player game.
TOR's combat feels much more dynamic than most similar MMOs I've found. Still same old stuff at it's core, but definitely the best interpretation of it I've seen, well along with GW2. _______________ To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield | Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken | Rhaiko D'kana - SWTOR EU Guild Co-Founder | Is it what the teacher, teaches? Or what the student learns? A Dkana |
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R2D2 - Staff
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The basic gameplay mechanics are still garbage
This is true of all MMOs, and if you ask why the mechanics are that way every just says "That's just the way MMOs work," i.e. every other MMO has done it that way, and innovation is a Bad Thing. The thing that bothers me most about MMO mechanics is the concept of Health Points or hit points or whatever, and the idea that you can take lots of hits from powerful weapons and keep fighting. That breaks my immersion more than anything else. Also most MMOs have way too much "stuff" overlaying the screen. IMO the perfect game UI is like the one in Dead Space--absolutely nothing on the screen except the world you're playing in. Cool floating menus pop up when you're in your inventory or at the store but disappear completely when they're not needed, nothing but complete immersion the rest of the time. The other thing every MMO should have is integrated Vent. I don't mean a crappy in-game voice chat like WoW has, but in-game support for connecting to actual Vent servers. I've sort of accepted the common mechanics of MMOs. In terms of immersion, sure, taking several hits and surviving isn't realistic, but what's the alternative to that? If you become realistic about it, you'll have a MMO FPS basically. People 1-shotting each other and possibly even bosses. Lightsabers would be much better than blasters, causing balance issues in SWTOR. As for the UI, Bioware has implemented a few improvements to it that have cleaned it up. The ability to customize the UI is not in yet though. According to devs, there will be some customization added in before launch, and lot more in the future. We'll have to see how that goes. I'm not familiar with how WoW does in-game voice chat. Is it like LOTRO? Basically, built-in function without the need of any other software? If so, those seem to be hit and miss. It makes getting PUGs a lot easier, as long as you have respectable people to play with. The downside is that the audio quality and sound level adjustment is still lacking. I do not know what Bioware has planned for voice chat. The lack of info points to it not being supported by the game in any way. _______________ "Do or do not, there is no try" Jedi Master Yoda Dual Saberist |
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JavaGuy - Student 
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Quote: The basic gameplay mechanics are still garbage
This is true of all MMOs, and if you ask why the mechanics are that way every just says "That's just the way MMOs work," i.e. every other MMO has done it that way, and innovation is a Bad Thing. The thing that bothers me most about MMO mechanics is the concept of Health Points or hit points or whatever, and the idea that you can take lots of hits from powerful weapons and keep fighting. That breaks my immersion more than anything else. Also most MMOs have way too much "stuff" overlaying the screen. IMO the perfect game UI is like the one in Dead Space--absolutely nothing on the screen except the world you're playing in. Cool floating menus pop up when you're in your inventory or at the store but disappear completely when they're not needed, nothing but complete immersion the rest of the time. The other thing every MMO should have is integrated Vent. I don't mean a crappy in-game voice chat like WoW has, but in-game support for connecting to actual Vent servers. _______________ My signature is only one line. You're welcome. |
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Lian Del Rey - Student 
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There is a beta and I am in it. :X
That's all beta testers are allowed to say with the NDA. I've been testing it for quite some time now and let me just tell you, this game is (NDA) I'm in it too Lian. I'm ArtooDetoo on the SWTOR forums. Did you get into the weekend testing or the regular game testing program? That isn't part of the NDA Oh how neat! I'm part of regular testing. If I was only part of beta weekends then I'd just hate everything. Far too little time to do all I'd like to do. _______________ slorp |
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R2D2 - Staff
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Quote: There is a beta and I am in it. :X
That's all beta testers are allowed to say with the NDA. I've been testing it for quite some time now and let me just tell you, this game is (NDA) I'm in it too Lian. I'm ArtooDetoo on the SWTOR forums. Did you get into the weekend testing or the regular game testing program? That isn't part of the NDA _______________ "Do or do not, there is no try" Jedi Master Yoda Dual Saberist |
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Lian Del Rey - Student
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There is a beta and I am in it. :X
That's all beta testers are allowed to say with the NDA. I've been testing it for quite some time now and let me just tell you, this game is (NDA) _______________ slorp |
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