| The problem with the MP part of JA | |
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Shannon -SC- - Student  |
Okay this is directly of a forum I browse now and then and so far I agree with most of the stuff said there and I'm curious of what you think about it. Weak sabers in saber only game types. I guarantee any of you who are reading this that if you were to duel me full force right now I could drag a single round out for 12 hours by simply draining you. You could not rely on high damage force based combos to end my "drain whoring" because they have been removed. You could not use "specials" or "Katas" to kill me because none of them are instant killers and even if you do take me to say 20 hp, I'm going to have plenty of force in reserve and just drain it right back. Not to mention I can drain you from the start of the match to even prevent you from using them a single time because they require such a huge portion of your force pool. You can't “saber" me with normal swings because they do such low damage I can actually let you hit me twice, wait... then start draining it back. So my question is, how do you kill me? Now when I say "me" I don't mean some random player on a public server, I mean myself. A very skilled player who is not going engage you, waste a drop of force and who will just sit back and drain you to prove that you lack the ability to kill him. Now you may say "I turn on absorb so he can't drain me then do a Kata". Wrong. You turn on absorb I'm going to stay out of range (back off/run away) and won't engage or get near until it turns off. Solutions? Setting the saber damage scale high (server side) of course right? Well answer me this: We all hated sabers in 1.04 right? That saber scale option was there in 1.04, explain to me if that was "our solution" why only 1 out of 600 servers used it? The bottom line is 99% of the JO/JA server admins are not like admins from games like Quake 3 or RTCW. If you don't put it in *base game play, chances are it's not going to ever get used. This is not opinion, it is fact. If I am wrong then please tell me why everyone complained about weak sabers in 1.04, had the cvar to make them better, but no one, and I mean virtually no one used that cvar? High damage specials require force Very bad idea. Now I know the logic was “people won’t complain about spamming if no one can spam them” when this was done. But like a lot of things, in reality it does not play out that way. Here is why: In Jedi Outcast if you were being drain whored you had basically 2 options: Run like hell and hope you can get away to regen or go on the offensive and use rapid attacks like a kick+ red dfa combo or specials like the blue lunge to turn the tide and get a quick win. Now look at Jedi Academy: I am drain whoring you, I have your force pool down to 0. I keep holding down the key and hit you with a drain blast every second to prevent you from regenerating. You can’t use any specials or high damage moves because they all *require force. You can’t use any defensive or offensive force powers because you have a 0 pool. What can you do? Swing a saber. But wait, none of the basic swings cause serious damage and since I’m just holding down the key I’m going to heal it back just as fast as you cause it. See the problem in this guys? Those special moves were the one great “random factor” when people would drain whore you. I know many of times I have drain whored opponents only to walk right into 1-2 back to back lunges and lose the match that I though I had in the bag. Before (in Jedi Outcast) a player being drain whored had many options in his arsenal to stay in the fight, But now, his only option is run and hope the guy can’t strafe jump as fast. Full Force Saber only CTF This game can be summed up in two basic statements: If you cap (a term for the guy who gets the flag) you NEVER fight, you run and you run like hell. If you defend, you need to kill in one single shot. The cappers (flag guy) are NOT going to stand there and fight you so what ever you use has to be an instant kill. Not to mention they will be using absorb and level 3 speed to make them immune from any force based attacks and will be impossible to kill unless you get them in one shot as they fly by at 90 miles per hour In Jedi Outcast you had two basic options to kill a capper, the DFA (or rage+dfa) or kick them off of a ledge for an instant fall death. Now look at Jedi Academy. The only “high damage” moves are the Katas, but you are locked into a stationary position while you execute them so unless the capper has moth blood in his veins and mistakes you for a giant bug zapper he’s not going to walk into a guy twirling a saber. The bottom line is the capper has no reason to stand there and “duke it out” because his job is to get back to his base as fast as possible and score. You remove the instant hit kills with no kick+fall deaths, you weaken the specials and make them use force (no rage+dfa combos now) and this translates into a capper with an escort using team heal being totally unstoppable. What was once before a fast paced game of CTF now turns into both sides grabbing the flag in the first 30 seconds and standing off for 19:30 and the match ends at 0/0 when the time hits. Force grip not being able to stay active when it is out of the line of sight This makes no sense at all, in theory maybe, but not in practice. Look at level 2 grip. Why is it useless? Because you are directly in the guys line of sight and all he has to do is push/pull and it instantly breaks, you simply can’t ever use it on anything other than bots or NPC’s that do not have push/pull. Grip at level 3 has become no different than level 2 now. No person with even ½ a brain is going to just sit there being choked if he is being held directly in front of the gripper with the option to break it with a simple push/pull. You say “spin the mouse around”? Wrong. You may think that is a viable strategy because it works on newbie’s, but it is incredibly easy to break for experienced players by simply looking down and exploiting the area of effect of force pull. Ways to fix these problems 1.01 patch -Up saber damages like we were being led to believe they would be when we were getting info on this game. Sure “technically” no one lied when they said sabers would be more lethal in some game types and weaker in others but every one of us thought that meant *high damage sabers in some game types, and *really high damage ones in others. I.e. stronger sabers than Jedi Outcast 1.04 had across the board. -Get rid of force usage restrictions on basic special moves. If you want to keep them on the high damage Katas fine, but the basic specials like the lunge and the dfa need to be un nerfed to be of any use in a realistic situation. -Kicking for all stances. This is one thing both “fan boys” and “competitive players” have all mentioned they wanted. If the debug melee command is server side only, like the damage scale command in Jedi Outcast 1.04, you know as well as I do it will never get used. A simple way to fix this is give the other two stances the double tap kicks and keep the multi style kicks for the staff users. As a side note, please test and refine the debug melee command if it is implemented because when used in single player it is obvious it is untested because of how erratic the results are (wall walking up a guys face when you try to kick him is a prefect example). -remove the line of sight restriction for grip to actually make it a power worth putting points into again. In closing I wanted to say thanks to all of the competitive guys from the various clans like =AX=, [div3rse], FK, rk //, guys like remij, +/< and others as well who have come here to respond to these threads. I know it can be frustrating when you are trying to make a serious point about game play mechanics and you get responses like “well that’s gay cuz in episode 2 yoda used absorb and blah blah” but please try to keep the tempers in check guys. Also as a final note I want to make it crystal clear to every single person here why this backlash is going on and who is responsible for it. This is nothing like the “back stab” whining that went on in Jedi Outcast. I really wish people were going “OMG These Katas are gay they keep spamming them and every one is getting killed!” because that would imply there is actually some serious depth and danger to be found in the game play. The problem we (the competitive players) have is there is simply no “meat” on this games bones. A few flashy eye candy moves that are ineffective in a realistic situation, the removal of high damage and complex combos and strategies basically makes this a “pick up and play for all ages” type of game that is so simplistic it’s dull and pointless to play at the moment for those people who crave a hardcore gaming experience. As I have said before, if this were a true new game I would totally agree that we should just sit back and give it some time, but let’s not play dumb, this game is 90% Jedi Outcast with a new coat of paint. You take what “did work” and remove it or weaken it, replace what was taken out with *ineffective moves that look pretty and slap a $50 price tag on it and yes, some people will be naive enough to believe it’s a whole new game with months and months of stuff to still be learned but those of us who play these games for the “game content” and not the “star wars content” are not going to be sold on that line of b.s. _______________ Falling from heaven is not as painfull, as surviving the impact. |
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| Comments |
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Ulic Belouve - Student 
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Yeah, I've noticed with absorb... If it's at level 3 (or maybe even Lvl 2), when they hit you with drain.... YOU GET FORCE POINTS BACK? Wow. Getting force points back when someone uses a Force power on you. They should call this thing ABSORB. Oh, wait. They do. And it absorbs. So you drain. If you happen to hit my absorb, which would be dumb, I get Force, you lost force. So you stop draining. I stop absorb. And chase you down. Drain again, I turn on absorb again. Generally, if you hit absorb mid-drain, they react too slow, and they feed your force before they realize it. But I digress to my one great point here: If you are a good player (or dedicate to, um TRAIN), then you should be able to get around these. I mean, c'mon. We had the gys who would walk around in blue stance crouched, and would lunge at you. They sucked, we got around them. We had the RDFA guys (and some tricks for fast RDFAs). So they'd fly arround and anniahlate with RDFAs. We got around them too. Look, the guy really is whining like an adolescent. He wants this equation: JK2 0wnag3=JK3 0wnag3 Here's a thought for those that might have missed it. JK3 is a NEW GAME. What? This ISN'T JK2? No. So, new ways around things, new tactics, etc. I've found that things that kinda sucked in JK2 are a bit better in JK3. So my best advice, go into the new game as a new game. Try different things, etc. There is no "invincible scenario" like this guy poses. You catch him in a double spin with dual sabers, and he goes down quick. No Force needed to do the double spin. Just...what?....SKILL. We are all new to the game. Hence why it is a NEW GAME. We have little skill, so someone creates a seemingly "invincible scenario", and we fall to it. Gain some skill, and you get around it. I remember the knockdowns from JK2. You get landed on, you fall down. I fought a bastard who never turned on saber, just kept landing on me. But now....no one can do that. I got some skills, learned stuff, etc. Same with all this. Some stuff does need to be changed, and I am sure can. (I saw Kyle kick with the single saber in SP a LOT, why can't we do that in all stances?). So to sum it up.... How will I beat this guy? I will TRAIN. And not settle into the mindset that there are invincible scenarios. I don't have a way to beat everything today, but I will train, and find the solution. For me, it's been about training. Not about winning. If you learn tons of stuff, there is that much more that you can get around. So keep your heads up with this game, and train. _______________ Jedi do not fight for peace. That's only a slogan, and is as misleading as slogans always are. Jedi fight for civilization, because only civilization creates peace. |
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Jake Kainite - Student 
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About the katas in CTF, he said that beacuse in saber only, the katas are the ONLY things you can kill someone with in one hit, if you're lucky and they walk into you. The problem is they are stationary. Anyone with half a brain at CTF isn't gonna stand around dueling an unimportant person, they're gonna steal/cap flag. The drain thing is totally correct. Funaz have you ever had a full force duel in JKII ? If you have then you'd know what this about, if you havn't then do some research before you insult this person you've never met  Dark will come out on top, its simple maths (or science, I don't know subjects....)Light has no offensive powers and also any semi skilled FF dueler will know that you NEVER do normal swings in ff duel unless its in certain situations (they're flat on their back basically) If you want me to show you this in JKII then please, tell me a time and I'd be happy to show you. To the people saying that beacuse they don't play a certain type of the game it doesn't matter to you, you should be ashamed of yourselves  You're Jedi Knight players, even if you don't play something you should still want it to work, at least for those that do want to play it. Look into the other stuff first before you totally dismiss it. _______________ Apprenctice of Jedi Master Ascari (deceased) Descended from a line of great Jedi Will argue any point of view from any side
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Funaz - Ex-Student 
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I think this guy is a complete moron who's so shortsided he can't see the end of his nose. Although he does make some valid points, mostly he is just ranting like a the pre-adolecent he is. This game has problems, that are mostly only in MP, which is the hardest to get right while in beta. It takes tons of people playing to actually figure out what needs to be tweaked, and give it a week or two and I gaurentee that most of this is will be corrected. His stupid drain whoring theory is totally unsounded. I know a level 3 absorb will def outdo the level 3 drain, and only takes 2 hits with red to kill someone standing there draining. And all his talk about katas, anyone who's trying to use a kata in a 1 on 1 ctf match is a moron, there even someone with the slighest bit of skill knows u can't go spamming special moves unless u want to get pwned. This game takes skill, different skill then Jk2, so people have to learn this game, not try to play the old one. _______________ Funaz Padawan of Mace Windu|Brother to noone|Cousin to noone|Secret admirer of Cloaked Thunder |
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Fizz of Belouve - Student 
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*bows* truly wise words....and I am eager to see whats happening to the game when some patches are finally out.... _______________ One of the Belouve boys, founder of the mighty FiZZsters Midbie council #20 - Fizz - #1933 - Jan '03 - Aug '04 "Renfield, you idiot!" |
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Marcel Mandarijn - Student 
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w0000t! *very loud applause* |
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Xanatos - Student 
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theyve got some serious probs. They need a patch and now. ack, gg. g'night guys, dont let the jk:ja MP bugs bite. _______________ |
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YinYang - Ex-Student 
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Another thing I dont understand is... In Singel Player the roll slashes,speacials,etc DONT take force at all ONLY the katas I beleive so what stupid idea was it for them to say "oh lets make it that it requires force to use speaicals in Multi Player"plus in SP u can pivit with some specials so it doesnt leave u SERIOUSLY open the kcik needs to be tuned to what it is liek it in JK2 10-20 HP per kick not 1 kick and I killed u HAHA I pwned u. NO WRONG!! I REALY REALY REALY hope Raven takes care of this trash cause I didnt want to pay $50 for nothing I want to be satisfiyed with waht I purchased  _______________ Sister to Smily,Axion,and CT Friend to ALL... SMILY, LUKE,MAGRA,AND KOYI RULE!!!!! . . : :There is ALWAYS 2 Yin and Yang , Good and Evil: : . . |
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Bubu - Hubbub 
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/me curses hong kong and its lack of game distributors! if everything this dude says is true then we need a patch fast! d'ya hear me lucasarts? _______________ make install -not war |
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MINDofSIN - Student 
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It is pretty hard to land a kick if the other person is expecting it. _______________ Jedi Academy Holocron http://jaholocron.ryanmh.com/ Why should our government send our soldiers to foreign soil to protect freedom of speech, when our freedom of speech is being taking away everyday by the same government. |
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Bandit - Student 
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I'm still astounded that one kick equals instance death. How screwed up is that? I mean, you can whack someone in the head with your saber and do 10 hp damage, or you can kick them once and they die? I've gotta be the lamest Jedi in the universe to get capped by one kick. I don't care if it's Bruce Lee taking steriods and juiced on meth. One kick shouldn't kill a jedi. _______________ Part-Time Player (Weekend Warrior). Recipient of the prestigious "Longest-Post-Ever Award" (bestowed on me by Flash on March 23rd, 2004) |
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YinYang - Ex-Student
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we should make a email to Raven and tell em our probs with the gaem as being there game supporters I think Raven will resopnd to the stuff we told em about, they'll patch this crap up so fast...well i just hoep they will _______________ Sister to Smily,Axion,and CT Friend to ALL... SMILY, LUKE,MAGRA,AND KOYI RULE!!!!! . . : :There is ALWAYS 2 Yin and Yang , Good and Evil: : . . |
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Buzz - Student 
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Furious that is the whole point of this thread. There are issues being voiced here. If people don't voice their concerns about the game they won't patch it because they'll think everything was good, and if people don't know why it was patched they'll just think its because of a bunch of whiners not knowing what they're talking about. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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Furi0us - Student 
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some of you are scaring me. Stop crying about all these problems because at the moment there's nothing you can do about it. If you want something to happen send a letter to the idiots who's fault this is and maybe, MAYBE, they will releas the patch to fix this Wow i said something meaninful...O_o weird _______________ You are not your f***ing system specs. You are not your uptime stats, your script file, or your oversized desktop screencap. You are not your broadband connection. You are not your f***ing post count. |
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Mace Windu - Retired 
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I think everything you have said here is absolutley true... _______________ -Mace Windu "When a fool says something foolish, do not answer the fool." -Windu To Vladarion, though I know you are in a better place - it makes me shake to think that you are not awake - when I think about you it makes me smile - i know you have gone into the clouds to head for heavens gates - you have changed my life - in an incredible way - and so I say thank you - may you rest in peace |
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Shannon -SC- - Student 
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Agreed if you won'T do force duels you might never stumble over this problem. As for setting the force regen slower. We won't do that. I'm not too sure the higher regen rate at the JK2 servers did us much good. Our purpose here, (besides having fun and meeting nice ppls) is to train you to get better on pups. And you can only train good in an enviroment that is like the one where you need to perform then. Oh I don't think the new moves have much noobines in them. Most of the time if you do them you're a sitting duck waiting for a roll stab. Of course if you hit then you hit bad. It all boils down as how you use em. And what is more noobish, the one who performs the moves well or the one who stumbles into them and get sliced like bread. _______________ Falling from heaven is not as painfull, as surviving the impact. |
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(SKX) Dark Blade - Student 
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I agree on saber damage but not the ctf because who in the world uses sabers to kill a capper? No one. I in fact like the idea that specials take force because then I can't be lammed repeatedly during a duel with constant lunges. I really don't care about the stuff about full force duel because I don't play it. _______________ What is the difference between love and Herpes? Herpes lasts forever. (CDC joke) Padawans: Trad Redav, Darth Jello, Tallepyon, Shang Chi, Dopp, Karlin Duke, AuroN, Koushka, Damon, and Katan Brother to Xanatos |
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(Jedi)Obi-JK - Student 
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Sup Great topic, I was about to do the same when but I came across, this. Other Thoughts/ Questions: Kicking: the staff saber kicking is much more realistic than the JK2 kicking all stances should receive this, there is a jump kick in the staff stance so dont complain about having to stand still to kick. Katas: This part is a question pls feel free to respond: Can I ''unbind'' this move in general, I dont care how many time I get pwned eventually only doing normaly swings I will get good enough to beat people. Katas / special moves: I think one JA server admins should set force regerenation to like 1000, so then you get maybe 2 special moves per duel, this will force everyone to stop the (inventing new word) noobness. Saber Damage: Cant the JA admins up saber dmg themselves? -- Praying for a quick patch  _______________ Silent Bob (Kevin Smith): You know, there's a million fine looking women in the world, dude. But they don't all bring you lasagna at work. Most of 'em just cheat on you. -Steve (Obi) |
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Jake Kainite - Student
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mikel have you had a full force duel in JKII ? Dark comes out on top everytime unless you get a lucky hit, and I can see it sort of going the same way in JK:JA, except you're right, no one would really do any damage since sabers right now don't function.... _______________ Apprenctice of Jedi Master Ascari (deceased) Descended from a line of great Jedi Will argue any point of view from any side
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Shannon -SC- - Student
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I know that you can hit with a lucky swing, but they are what they are lucky and thats it. But we'll see patches will come and we have to deal with it. _______________ Falling from heaven is not as painfull, as surviving the impact. |
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Mikel Rider - Student 
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Oh, but I agree that the speacial moves taking force power is increadibly stupid as well. _______________ Using no way as way. Having no limitation as limitation. |
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Mikel Rider - Student 
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well, to answer your what would I do question, it depends on my style I guess. If I have the staff, I kick you in the balls for being a drain whore and slash you on the ground and hope I get a little force back because you can't drain from the ground. Since you are busy draining me you really can't win either, maybe after I kick you ill start the draining and see what you do. With the good ol single saber I think ill just bust out the red, so the 2 attacks you said you would take would probably kill you. When you are draining you are not defending so that would open you up a bit. With the duel sabers, that is a bit tougher, I can't knock you over, and I can't kill you in a few swings. But if you know how to use the wonderful duelies you can kill in a very few swings. I mean, it is faster than the red single if the opponent is porely defended.\ Also the kind of draining you described follows a bit of a pattern, that isn't much, but it is something to work with. A appropriate undefended swing will make you think twice about draining again. Also, nothing is stoping me from backstabing... and those hurt. If I were dark, I think i would open up the drain when I see you doing it, If I am light, yeah I thnnk I might turn on absorb. Now you said you would back off, but I think I could chase you down a bit, and I know you are going to try and drain me as soon as my absorb goes off, so ill weight for your draining hand to come up and leaving enough force to click it back on, do so. Now all this time you are draining you are not being terribly offensive, you are just keeping your life at 100 and keeping my force close to 0. So first ill take out your shielding, since you canit re fill that, then weight for an opening, most players get tired of draining eventualy, and try to go on the offensive, none of this is fool proofe of course, but that is what I have been doing to the rest of the skilled drain whores, which puts 2 words together I don't think should be, and if you were just to good to deal with like that I would have to say that it is is a tie (since neither one of us are really doing damage to oneanother), do not fight me again. _______________ Using no way as way. Having no limitation as limitation. |
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Shannon -SC- - Student 
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Wut there's a patch out?  _______________ Falling from heaven is not as painfull, as surviving the impact. |
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Luke Skywalker - Student 
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I agree with everything stated here. Lancer said on the servers once, blame the beta testers, not LA  . If these morons woulda pointed these clearly visible errors out, we wouldn't be having this conversation right now. PS: Rampage, I think that thing fixes game crashes or something like that, am I wrong? Don't get me wrong, I obviously hope it fixes some of the sh*t we're talking about right now. _______________  Luke Skywalker
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Rampage - Student 
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exar, patch patch patch patch patch paaaaaaaatch is out, but DJ sais it's slapped full of a crappy error |
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Lord Exar Kun - Student 
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patch patch patch patch patch paaaaaaaatch!! _______________ -Retired april the 19th 2004 |
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