| The problem with the MP part of JA | |
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Shannon -SC- - Student  |
Okay this is directly of a forum I browse now and then and so far I agree with most of the stuff said there and I'm curious of what you think about it. Weak sabers in saber only game types. I guarantee any of you who are reading this that if you were to duel me full force right now I could drag a single round out for 12 hours by simply draining you. You could not rely on high damage force based combos to end my "drain whoring" because they have been removed. You could not use "specials" or "Katas" to kill me because none of them are instant killers and even if you do take me to say 20 hp, I'm going to have plenty of force in reserve and just drain it right back. Not to mention I can drain you from the start of the match to even prevent you from using them a single time because they require such a huge portion of your force pool. You can't “saber" me with normal swings because they do such low damage I can actually let you hit me twice, wait... then start draining it back. So my question is, how do you kill me? Now when I say "me" I don't mean some random player on a public server, I mean myself. A very skilled player who is not going engage you, waste a drop of force and who will just sit back and drain you to prove that you lack the ability to kill him. Now you may say "I turn on absorb so he can't drain me then do a Kata". Wrong. You turn on absorb I'm going to stay out of range (back off/run away) and won't engage or get near until it turns off. Solutions? Setting the saber damage scale high (server side) of course right? Well answer me this: We all hated sabers in 1.04 right? That saber scale option was there in 1.04, explain to me if that was "our solution" why only 1 out of 600 servers used it? The bottom line is 99% of the JO/JA server admins are not like admins from games like Quake 3 or RTCW. If you don't put it in *base game play, chances are it's not going to ever get used. This is not opinion, it is fact. If I am wrong then please tell me why everyone complained about weak sabers in 1.04, had the cvar to make them better, but no one, and I mean virtually no one used that cvar? High damage specials require force Very bad idea. Now I know the logic was “people won’t complain about spamming if no one can spam them” when this was done. But like a lot of things, in reality it does not play out that way. Here is why: In Jedi Outcast if you were being drain whored you had basically 2 options: Run like hell and hope you can get away to regen or go on the offensive and use rapid attacks like a kick+ red dfa combo or specials like the blue lunge to turn the tide and get a quick win. Now look at Jedi Academy: I am drain whoring you, I have your force pool down to 0. I keep holding down the key and hit you with a drain blast every second to prevent you from regenerating. You can’t use any specials or high damage moves because they all *require force. You can’t use any defensive or offensive force powers because you have a 0 pool. What can you do? Swing a saber. But wait, none of the basic swings cause serious damage and since I’m just holding down the key I’m going to heal it back just as fast as you cause it. See the problem in this guys? Those special moves were the one great “random factor” when people would drain whore you. I know many of times I have drain whored opponents only to walk right into 1-2 back to back lunges and lose the match that I though I had in the bag. Before (in Jedi Outcast) a player being drain whored had many options in his arsenal to stay in the fight, But now, his only option is run and hope the guy can’t strafe jump as fast. Full Force Saber only CTF This game can be summed up in two basic statements: If you cap (a term for the guy who gets the flag) you NEVER fight, you run and you run like hell. If you defend, you need to kill in one single shot. The cappers (flag guy) are NOT going to stand there and fight you so what ever you use has to be an instant kill. Not to mention they will be using absorb and level 3 speed to make them immune from any force based attacks and will be impossible to kill unless you get them in one shot as they fly by at 90 miles per hour In Jedi Outcast you had two basic options to kill a capper, the DFA (or rage+dfa) or kick them off of a ledge for an instant fall death. Now look at Jedi Academy. The only “high damage” moves are the Katas, but you are locked into a stationary position while you execute them so unless the capper has moth blood in his veins and mistakes you for a giant bug zapper he’s not going to walk into a guy twirling a saber. The bottom line is the capper has no reason to stand there and “duke it out” because his job is to get back to his base as fast as possible and score. You remove the instant hit kills with no kick+fall deaths, you weaken the specials and make them use force (no rage+dfa combos now) and this translates into a capper with an escort using team heal being totally unstoppable. What was once before a fast paced game of CTF now turns into both sides grabbing the flag in the first 30 seconds and standing off for 19:30 and the match ends at 0/0 when the time hits. Force grip not being able to stay active when it is out of the line of sight This makes no sense at all, in theory maybe, but not in practice. Look at level 2 grip. Why is it useless? Because you are directly in the guys line of sight and all he has to do is push/pull and it instantly breaks, you simply can’t ever use it on anything other than bots or NPC’s that do not have push/pull. Grip at level 3 has become no different than level 2 now. No person with even ½ a brain is going to just sit there being choked if he is being held directly in front of the gripper with the option to break it with a simple push/pull. You say “spin the mouse around”? Wrong. You may think that is a viable strategy because it works on newbie’s, but it is incredibly easy to break for experienced players by simply looking down and exploiting the area of effect of force pull. Ways to fix these problems 1.01 patch -Up saber damages like we were being led to believe they would be when we were getting info on this game. Sure “technically” no one lied when they said sabers would be more lethal in some game types and weaker in others but every one of us thought that meant *high damage sabers in some game types, and *really high damage ones in others. I.e. stronger sabers than Jedi Outcast 1.04 had across the board. -Get rid of force usage restrictions on basic special moves. If you want to keep them on the high damage Katas fine, but the basic specials like the lunge and the dfa need to be un nerfed to be of any use in a realistic situation. -Kicking for all stances. This is one thing both “fan boys” and “competitive players” have all mentioned they wanted. If the debug melee command is server side only, like the damage scale command in Jedi Outcast 1.04, you know as well as I do it will never get used. A simple way to fix this is give the other two stances the double tap kicks and keep the multi style kicks for the staff users. As a side note, please test and refine the debug melee command if it is implemented because when used in single player it is obvious it is untested because of how erratic the results are (wall walking up a guys face when you try to kick him is a prefect example). -remove the line of sight restriction for grip to actually make it a power worth putting points into again. In closing I wanted to say thanks to all of the competitive guys from the various clans like =AX=, [div3rse], FK, rk //, guys like remij, +/< and others as well who have come here to respond to these threads. I know it can be frustrating when you are trying to make a serious point about game play mechanics and you get responses like “well that’s gay cuz in episode 2 yoda used absorb and blah blah” but please try to keep the tempers in check guys. Also as a final note I want to make it crystal clear to every single person here why this backlash is going on and who is responsible for it. This is nothing like the “back stab” whining that went on in Jedi Outcast. I really wish people were going “OMG These Katas are gay they keep spamming them and every one is getting killed!” because that would imply there is actually some serious depth and danger to be found in the game play. The problem we (the competitive players) have is there is simply no “meat” on this games bones. A few flashy eye candy moves that are ineffective in a realistic situation, the removal of high damage and complex combos and strategies basically makes this a “pick up and play for all ages” type of game that is so simplistic it’s dull and pointless to play at the moment for those people who crave a hardcore gaming experience. As I have said before, if this were a true new game I would totally agree that we should just sit back and give it some time, but let’s not play dumb, this game is 90% Jedi Outcast with a new coat of paint. You take what “did work” and remove it or weaken it, replace what was taken out with *ineffective moves that look pretty and slap a $50 price tag on it and yes, some people will be naive enough to believe it’s a whole new game with months and months of stuff to still be learned but those of us who play these games for the “game content” and not the “star wars content” are not going to be sold on that line of b.s. _______________ Falling from heaven is not as painfull, as surviving the impact. |
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| Comments |
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Rampage - Student 
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LA is gay  |
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D@RtHM@UL - Student 
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Anyone know when a patch is gonna be released? Soon I hope. |
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Khalek[JAP] - Ex-Student ![Khalek[JAP]](/image_thumbnail.php?f_type=users&f_width=70&f_height=50&f_image=4155.jpg)
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Too true, Maggy. Jim, if there was merely a balance issue, we would complain but not be so serious. However it is a serious issue if one power stands out by far above the others, as this means that all the hard work (and there is a difference across most powers between the implementation in JK:JA and in JO, so I'm not mocking when I say hard work) that Raven have made in implementing 20(??) powers has been somewhat wasted for MP. 1.4 JO is by far the best of the JO patches, because there is not a single useless power, when considered across all the game types. Some more experienced players may challenge this, and I will listen, but AFAIK there is not the imbalance that we are now seeing with JK:JA (anyone remember being able to turn the RDFA after impact?). Will this stop me playing the game? Nope, and AFAIK no-one has said they would...but improving your game is a good way of getting a solid client base. Just look at what I think is likely to happen to the sales of Bethesda's next project after the unbelievably buggy Morrowind.... _______________ Brother to HW and Kyp Durron, padawan of the almiiiighty NFF. Traitor to the family and keeper of the LOLlipops (poisoned and otherwise). Jello's unwanted second cousin. Vladarion's moral lesser  http://www.crazyfray.co.uk/home.htm - major update coming soon, yeah right.... £3.00 to be pledged so far to the JA fund...  Just type PLEDGE ME UP KHALEK in any interesting post, and if it passes the funkolology test, 50p goes in the kitty... This one's for Jacen... http://www.bash.org/?7838
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La Magra - Ex-Student |
PATCH IT UP DAMMIT!!!!! I AM DYING OUT HERE!!!! |
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YinYang - Ex-Student 
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WOW seriously I completly agree with this guy haveing to use force on special moves IS stupid kata's I understand but not lunge or rdfa makes no sense at allI REALY do hope they patch most of these things up cause I think the so called "BETA"tester did a BAD job in "HELPING"this game out cause they shoulda pointed out ALL those things that this guy pointed out..once the game is all patched and all it'll seriously PWN damn u LA's for u lazyness  _______________ Sister to Smily,Axion,and CT Friend to ALL... SMILY, LUKE,MAGRA,AND KOYI RULE!!!!! . . : :There is ALWAYS 2 Yin and Yang , Good and Evil: : . . |
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Shannon -SC- - Student 
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I will and actually this is a pretty good idea. Just some more time for more people to read through it. (Just another note, I haven't written this post it's from a guy on the official forums. I know many posts from him and most of the stuff he says makes sense. As I read this particular post I though: OMG he's soo fucking right and I want everyone else to read it.) _______________ Falling from heaven is not as painfull, as surviving the impact. |
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Kueller - Student 
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Shannon, if you get enough feadback, will you write an email to raven to ask for this updates? Because how are they gonna know they have to change it if they don't know what ppl think of it. I think these changes should be made in the next patch. If we (Jedi Academy) organise 1 single letter to Raven signed by a huge list of ppl, they are going to listen I think. Just an idea. _______________ Personal sleepness-nights-supporter of Virtue. Owner of the 1000th comment of Daidalus and 1943th comment of Gradius! Owner of the 300th comment of Carda! -Taught Gradius all his laming skills
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Shannon -SC- - Student
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Well the part is we don't need to get used to it. All the patches for JK2 came out because the community comlpained. They'Re not patching for fun since it costs lots of money to get a team program up something. I'm pretty confidend that this game will change with next patches, but I want to point to the things which should be considered for a change. The more people know about those problems the more might complain the faster they change it. Just sitting back "enjoying" the game won't do anyone any good. Don't get me wrong here, I really like the game and it's fun playing it, but why stop and not trying to make it better. _______________ Falling from heaven is not as painfull, as surviving the impact. |
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DoriaN - Ex-Student 
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I'm not denying this, but read what I've posted before, understand it's a game, and if you want to have fun playing it, learn to play it the best you can and don't spend your time arguing and complaining and these problems that probably won't change. As you've said it's merely an expansion pack of JO, so in a way, it's new gameplay, get used to it. _______________ JiM |
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Buzz - Student 
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I stand corrected on the absorb then. Jim you do realize that this isn't an entirely new game. People can tell how sabers have been altered from JO to JA. And if you think about it the point is very valid about drain whoring. Every special move requires a large quantity of force. So all specials are rendered useless, you can't even do a simple lunge. Like it was said in that post, if this were a new game people would be saying to give it time, but its not a new game, its really little more than an expansion pack of JO. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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DoriaN - Ex-Student
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Training is the only way to learn how to defend better against such technics, you cannot sit play the game for less than a week and start to assume, this and that is impossible. The only way you get better, is practice practice. There's always a way to get passed a problem. Focus on your advantages and not disadvantages. _______________ JiM This comment was edited by DoriaN on Sep 20 2003 10:21pm. |
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Rampage - Student 
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k...good...nice... |
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Shannon -SC- - Student 
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Erm I investigated and absorb is NOT visible. It jsut seems to you visible but others won't see if you have it on or not. (just hear the sound and see the blue aura if they hit you with force) _______________ Falling from heaven is not as painfull, as surviving the impact. |
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Rampage - Student
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absorb is visible? that sucks!! grip can't b used outside the visible area? that sucks too!!!! and it sounds like siege is way too buggy...shame on u raven Edit: DB, i think i agree with you, but i didn't play other patches much.. This comment was edited by Rampage on Sep 20 2003 06:53pm. |
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(SKX) Dark Blade - Student 
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I liked 1.04, it was the most balanced of all the patches. And in this game single blade is screw because 1.It has a max number of moves per combo and the other ones don't, you can do staff scissors for 20 mins if you wanted 2. I has pretty low damage. From what I have heard staff does as much damage as yellow and 2 sabers have as much as blue but when one saber hits the other hits too. _______________ What is the difference between love and Herpes? Herpes lasts forever. (CDC joke) Padawans: Trad Redav, Darth Jello, Tallepyon, Shang Chi, Dopp, Karlin Duke, AuroN, Koushka, Damon, and Katan Brother to Xanatos This comment was edited by (SKX) Dark Blade on Sep 20 2003 06:53pm. |
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Buzz - Student
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Yeah nothing like fighting with a big giant glow stick. Might as well swing a flash light. I can understand them altering how the Rdfa is done. It is much similar to the method you use for implementing at ydfa. My question is why do they revert back some things done in JK2, ie making absorb always visible? It makes that power worthless as it was pointed out there. Everyone can see you use it and know when you turn it off. Before you had to wonder if they had shut it off or have it on to begin with. I'm not going to attempt a single force attack if I know its going to benefit my opponent. Isn't that why they made absorb invisible? So its not a worthless force power? I also agree with making you stationary for the specials. You are a total sitting duck in these situations and I have at least once tried to roll and accidentally started doing the saber staff twirl and died due to it, since my roll was meant to evade an attack. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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Khalek[JAP] - Ex-Student
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From my play, it seems like they've spent so much time on the interesting and varied levels for SP that they haven't bothered balancing the MP. In JO 1.4, there's no way that people would call the three true specials 'equal. They don't have to be; if there are several ways to counter them AND that is balanced with high damage then they are both useful and an option in combat. A lunge will be used more often by most JO (not all....) players that I know, because of the shorter recovery time. But as Shannon says, none will be used in drain matches. No-one is asking (that I've heard) for all the stances to be perfectly equal - just near enough that if you're good that you'll win more often, not simply outlast your opponent with drain.... What Raven have done is equalised the stances by making them all crap due to the lowsaber damage mentioned by Shannon[JAT]. It doesn't matter if staff has 20% more damage (numbers aren't real, ok?) if the base damage is 2..... The proportions are only an issue (and they have been an issue in previous patches of JO....a REAL issue) if and WHEN (Please please when.... ) the stupidly low saber damage is fixed.(and I managed not to mention Public servers ONCE!! ) _______________ Brother to HW and Kyp Durron, padawan of the almiiiighty NFF. Traitor to the family and keeper of the LOLlipops (poisoned and otherwise). Jello's unwanted second cousin. Vladarion's moral lesser http://www.crazyfray.co.uk/home.htm - major update coming soon, yeah right.... £3.00 to be pledged so far to the JA fund... Just type PLEDGE ME UP KHALEK in any interesting post, and if it passes the funkolology test, 50p goes in the kitty... This one's for Jacen... http://www.bash.org/?7838
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D@RtHM@UL - Student
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Yeah MP sucks atleast IMO. Lightning and kicks are 1 hit kill  .In Siege mode i get kicked out cause of dumb errors |
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Rampage - Student
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wtf chosen, that sucks!!!!!!!! This comment was edited by Rampage on Sep 20 2003 03:48pm. |
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cHoSeN oNe - Retired 
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Wanna hear some tragic news? LucasArts might prevent Raven from releasing the source code. So we may have to rely on Raven to do everything we want. Which is 99% unlikely to happen with the reqs we used in the JA Mod. Let us pray that LucasArts does not become an enemy of the gaming world! _______________ Get busy living, or get busy dying. This comment was edited by cHoSeN oNe on Sep 20 2003 03:07pm. |
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Jake Kainite - Student 
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omg lol thats pretty much word for word what I'm thinking right now and when he mentioned those clans (I know of them) then I can totally understand what he's getting at. Its a little too look good and not enough feel good, simple as that. _______________ Apprenctice of Jedi Master Ascari (deceased) Descended from a line of great Jedi Will argue any point of view from any side
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Bandit - Student 
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-Up saber damages like we were being led to believe they would be when we were getting info on this game. Sure “technically” no one lied when they said sabers would be more lethal in some game types and weaker in others but every one of us thought that meant *high damage sabers in some game types, and *really high damage ones in others. I.e. stronger sabers than Jedi Outcast 1.04 had across the board. ***Damn skippy!!*** -Get rid of force usage restrictions on basic special moves. If you want to keep them on the high damage Katas fine, but the basic specials like the lunge and the dfa need to be un nerfed to be of any use in a realistic situation. ****HELL yes!*** -Kicking for all stances. This is one thing both “fan boys” and “competitive players” have all mentioned they wanted. If the debug melee command is server side only, like the damage scale command in Jedi Outcast 1.04, you know as well as I do it will never get used. A simple way to fix this is give the other two stances the double tap kicks and keep the multi style kicks for the staff users. ***PREACH it brother!*** I agree wholeheartedly with the post. Normal saber strikes are too ineffective reducing duels to special after special. And the specials are TOO powerful. Most will kill with one hit...and I mean one blade hitting you out of a flurry of blades in a kata. :empire _______________ Part-Time Player (Weekend Warrior). Recipient of the prestigious "Longest-Post-Ever Award" (bestowed on me by Flash on March 23rd, 2004) This comment was edited by Bandit on Sep 20 2003 04:13pm. |
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Garos - Student 
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long post I don't have it either |
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Shannon -SC- - Student
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*g* Okay if you have check back! _______________ Falling from heaven is not as painfull, as surviving the impact. |
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Flash - Student 
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Damn that's a long post. Well, I don't have the game, so I don't know of any problems with it yet. |
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